What are your thoughts on the trans movement? Is there merit and extremes?

[DrixlRey]

I like to think of this issue as a spectrum, you can support it, to an extent. My personal belief is that there are actually some deep seated issues with people who base their entire lives and identity on gender. I acknowledge that it's probably very hard to fit in if you're trans. I find it very hard to be a normal dude day to day already. We all have deep seated issues sometimes. My thinking is that to try and change the views of other people just so you can feel good about yourself is not the solution. I think we need to find love and belief and confidence within ourselves. And whether someone else calls me or validates my gender is not important.

[naruto]

I personally don't care how others choose to live their lives as long as it doesn't harm someone else's. So for those that are trans, i believe they should have the ability to live their lives without being discriminated against (employment, access to public spaces, etc.).

There are several issues which need to be addressed in society. The popular ones being discussed right now include the following:

- Biological males who have transitioned should not be competing in sports against biological females - the physical difference is a significant factor in the advantages it offers biological males who have transitioned. They should have an "Open" class in which these individuals may be able to compete in, whether that's the Men's division or not can be debated. The women's division should be dependent on biological sex, not gender.

- Access/guideline on which restroom to use. My opinion is that the unisex bathroom is best accommodated to fit the needs of the trans individuals. I personally don't care if i see a trans in the men's bathroom, but thinking on how society is to evolve with current/potential future identities/genders - i think it's only reasonable to have establishments provide for Male, Female, Unisex restrooms. Otherwise, where do we draw the line on what's practical?

- Age in which transitional consent is required. This is a major decision for any individual, especially since the effects are irreversible. I believe without parental consent, then the individual must have reached the age of "adulthood" with respect to their residing country to undergo any surgical transitional procedure.

I realize many have their own thoughts on the matter and would like to see what others think as well.

[Erik.]

Just my 2 cents because some of the phrasing kinda irks me, might write a longer reply tomorrow but it's late.


@(you need an account to see links)

people who base their entire lives and identity on gender.

If you're cis male you'd never realize that gender is a massive part of your every day life and identity. Imagine waking up as the opposite gender tomorrow, how would you feel? How would you try to cope? Also I find it condescending to say trans people "base their entire lives" on being trans. They don't. They just want a happy life and be validated and respected.

My thinking is that to try and change the views of other people just so you can feel good about yourself is not the solution.

I'm gay, and even though I'm very privileged (too tall to mess with, white, rich parents, rich country etc.) I have had a shitload of homophobic experiences. I am actively protesting against homophobia and I DEMAND people respect me for who I am. NOT because "I want to feel good about myself", but because I deserve respect and not hate. Same goes for trans people. The time for being meek and standing on the fringes of society is over. Society will never accept us if we stay silent and meek.


@(you need an account to see links)

My opinion is that the unisex bathroom is best accommodated to fit the needs of the trans individuals

It's not. If you are a trans man or woman living as "stealth" or even if you just want to be seen as your identifying gender, you want to use the correct bathroom. Besides that, it's also safer. I can't imagine what it would be like for a trans woman to be forced to go to the men's still. It's sometimes not even safe for cis woman. And they're not non-binary. Going to one as a trans individual is just a big red flag.

Otherwise, where do we draw the line on what's practical?

There's already 3 bathrooms, and more and more places (luckily) have 4 types of bathrooms: men's, women's, accessible, non-binary. I think those encompass enough. And it's funny how no one was talking about "drawing a line" when accessible ("disabled") bath room stalls were first appointed.

This is a major decision for any individual, especially since the effects are irreversible.

In my country, and in a lot of Western countries (I think USA including) minors do not get hormone replacement until they're adults specifically for this reason. They get hormone blockers, so they don't go into puberty, which irreversibly lowers their chance of feeling good in their body and passing as the gender they feel inside. When they become of age they either start HRT (when they still decide to) or stop with blockers if they decide not to, in which case puberty kicks in. So there's no damaging effects to minors.

[aymo]

it used to be that men who were feminine were metrosexual or whatever, girls who were masculine were tomboys. these new words like non binary or genderfluid are just this generation's words to describe those general concepts that have always been around in some form or another. transgender may be a new word but the concept has been around for ages just called different things + you probably didn't have social media to see it as much. i don't think there's a movement at all. saying there's a transgender movement is like when people were saying there was a gay agenda 10-20 years ago. buzz words to distract from actual problems in society. the media may say kids are maiming their bodies but it's not actually true, it's sensationalism so that you aren't looking at the four mass shootings the U.S. had in the last week.

[houseplant0]

I'm fully in support of human rights. I think one thing that is constantly forgotten by people is that those born as intersex often have forced gender assignment surgery as an infant even though it won't always match what the individual feels they are later in life, leading them to transition just the same. People who are happy and comfortable in their own skin that feel safe in public will tend to have better mental health and as a result be more productive members of society, I don't understand how anyone could have a problem with that.

[Blanc]

I like to think of this issue as a spectrum, you can support it, to an extent. My personal belief is that there are actually some deep seated issues with people who base their entire lives and identity on gender. I acknowledge that it's probably very hard to fit in if you're trans. I find it very hard to be a normal dude day to day already. We all have deep seated issues sometimes. My thinking is that to try and change the views of other people just so you can feel good about yourself is not the solution. I think we need to find love and belief and confidence within ourselves. And whether someone else calls me or validates my gender is not important.

Mostly echoing what Erik said, but I think you aren't realizing how much gender identity affects day to day life. I have to be more careful at night when I'm alone because I'm a (cis) woman, because of my gender. I have to be wary of things or experiences that a cis man does not. My pay grade in society is different because I'm a woman... so many things intrinsic in our lives are linked to our sex and by extension our gender. It only seems like people are "basing their lives around it" because the world makes it so hard for them to live freely as their chosen gender passively, they're just fighting to be happy.

I'm a cis woman, but I am friends with more than a handful of trans folk, some of them are my closest friends. I've heard so much about the troubles they face forced upon them by their governments (as most are international) and their own personal dysphorias. No one's views are being 'forced to change' as much as it's just a matter of being more accepting that these people need accommodations for the lives they live. It's late so I'm not as wordy as I could be, but I'll just say that I think the things you're saying are more untrue than you may realize, and you probably aren't aware of them because you aren't affected by these issues such as not feeling comfortable in your own body, restroom usage, etc.

[DrixlRey]

Just my 2 cents because some of the phrasing kinda irks me, might write a longer reply tomorrow but it's late.


@(you need an account to see links)


If you're cis male you'd never realize that gender is a massive part of your every day life and identity. Imagine waking up as the opposite gender tomorrow, how would you feel? How would you try to cope? Also I find it condescending to say trans people "base their entire lives" on being trans. They don't. They just want a happy life and be validated and respected.



I'm gay, and even though I'm very privileged (too tall to mess with, white, rich parents, rich country etc.) I have had a shitload of homophobic experiences. I am actively protesting against homophobia and I DEMAND people respect me for who I am. NOT because "I want to feel good about myself", but because I deserve respect and not hate. Same goes for trans people. The time for being meek and standing on the fringes of society is over. Society will never accept us if we stay silent and meek.


@(you need an account to see links)


It's not. If you are a trans man or woman living as "stealth" or even if you just want to be seen as your identifying gender, you want to use the correct bathroom. Besides that, it's also safer. I can't imagine what it would be like for a trans woman to be forced to go to the men's still. It's sometimes not even safe for cis woman. And they're not non-binary. Going to one as a trans individual is just a big red flag.



There's already 3 bathrooms, and more and more places (luckily) have 4 types of bathrooms: men's, women's, accessible, non-binary. I think those encompass enough. And it's funny how no one was talking about "drawing a line" when accessible ("disabled") bath room stalls were first appointed.



In my country, and in a lot of Western countries (I think USA including) minors do not get hormone replacement until they're adults specifically for this reason. They get hormone blockers, so they don't go into puberty, which irreversibly lowers their chance of feeling good in their body and passing as the gender they feel inside. When they become of age they either start HRT (when they still decide to) or stop with blockers if they decide not to, in which case puberty kicks in. So there's no damaging effects to minors.

Maybe I will never realize exactly how, but I empathize. I will say it's probably, and most likely harder.

I'm just saying that as a CIS man, my struggles are also worth nothing. So are CIS women. So are depressed men and depressed women. My point is that mental health issues are not solved by telling the world that they belong. It is possible for a CIS man to be suicidal, and a trans man/women to be perfectly fine.

The method that worked for me as a CIS man to work through my pain, my issues, my mental health and insecurities was with building self-confidence, and NOT requiring external validity.

I appreciate everybody's nuanced views on this. Seems to be a much more constructive forum as compared to Reddit.

[Erik.]

Maybe I will never realize exactly how, but I empathize. I will say it's probably, and most likely harder.

I'm just saying that as a CIS man, my struggles are also worth nothing. So are CIS women. So are depressed men and depressed women. My point is that mental health issues are not solved by telling the world that they belong. It is possible for a CIS man to be suicidal, and a trans man/women to be perfectly fine.

The method that worked for me as a CIS man to work through my pain, my issues, my mental health and insecurities was with building self-confidence, and NOT requiring external validity.

I appreciate everybody's nuanced views on this. Seems to be a much more constructive forum as compared to Reddit.

That's great that you were able to overcome it by building up confidence, but let's not judge others for needing other methods to cope and overcome. Everyone's different. I've suffered for depressions for years and a big part that held me back was my family and people surrounding me not supporting me and saying my feelings were invalid and stupid and I just had to man up, and that I was simply lazy and lacked discipline.

Even then, trans people want external validity not to for their mental health, but for their gender identity, which is something completely different. You can be as self-confident as Liberace but if people mock, hate, discriminate, misgender you on a regular basis simply because you exist your life gets pretty difficult. It's not weird to try to stop that and not weird to seek support and call them out. We don't expect black people either to just fix their experiences with racism by fixing themselves or getting more confident...

[Mothman]

Whether or not you think it's a part of your life, it is.

Most issues that people bring up regarding trans people are mostly brought up due to lack of education on the topics, including the sports debate. There are many more factors involved other than the sex assigned at birth - there are cis women that have more testosterone in their systems than some cis men and that's never an issue...

Bathrooms - no one is looking at each other. everyone is there to do their business and get out. regulating trans people to a unisex bathroom is just segregating them into a place where you don't have to face something that challenges you. you can't always tell that someone is trans anyway, so really what people are saying there is that if you look trans (even if you're not!!) you don't belong in the women's or men's bathroom. If you don't conform to the perfect gender ideal, then you don't get to use the bathroom.

People always say, why does this affect you, why does gender matter that much to you? Well... why does anything matter? Why are things that make up your identity as a person real, but the things that make up someone else's are not?

I'm nonbinary, and there's nothing you can say that will invalidate that or validate it. You can think whatever you want to think, but it doesn't change who I am. Trans people aren't asking anyone to make them feel good about themselves, or to be perfect allies, all trans people are asking is to be treated like humans, fairly and with the care they deserve.

Feel free to ask if you have any questions regarding nonbinary identities specifically!

[Reddokitsune]

- Biological males who have transitioned should not be competing in sports against biological females - the physical difference is a significant factor in the advantages it offers biological males who have transitioned.

As a cis woman who doesn't compete in sports at all, I think that if a trans woman has been on HRT since puberty there should be no issue for her to compete against cis woman. As for trans women who have not been lucky enough to get early medical assistance, or just trans woman that don't want to go through HRT, I don't have an awnser for that.

- Access/guideline on which restroom to use. My opinion is that the unisex bathroom is best accommodated to fit the needs of the trans individuals.

I think all bathrooms should be unisex, and there should be a mandatory kids bathroom and an adult's bathroom.
I know men's bathroom is dirtier than women's, but I think men can learn to be cleaner, is 2023, let's set the standards higher.

The method that worked for me as a CIS man to work through my pain, my issues, my mental health and insecurities was with building self-confidence, and NOT requiring external validity.

Societal issues cannot be resolved through individual means, the struggle trans people face does not depend on how they feel, the discrimination and hate they get from people and institutions is what limits their human rights. No self-love will solve that for them.