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Thread: What are your opinions on Israel x Palestine?

  1. #11
    Unlucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Why So Serious View Post
    In my view, the beginning of a third war, a very beginning.
    You mean a third world war? It has been going on for so long at this point. I wonder if it will ever escalate to that point. In my opinion, if were going to be a third world war, it would have already happened. But other countries don't seem to be insterested in getting involved.
    so you were curious huh?

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  3. #12
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    Anyone hammering on about "both sides" and "complex situation" is siding with the oppressor. Neutrality is siding with the oppressor. A violent oppression will always force violent resistance into existence. Violent resistance is UGLY. What happened on the 7th of Oct should not have happened... but anyone directing their anger at the people of Palestine (I would go as far as to even say members of HAMAS, who mind you are young men who were born into what is basically a concentration camp, have had their entire lives controlled by Israel, many of whom will have had friends and family members murdered by the occupation, and because of these things have become radicalized to a senseless degree) are misguided. Peoples anger should be directed at the state of Israel for creating circumstances that forced these men into becoming such brutal militants. Also anyone who "isn't knowledgeable enough to voice an opinion" needs to educate themselves. It's not that hard to form a relatively informed opinion when there are countless hours of informational videos, podcasts, books, news articles on the subject. Staying willfully ignorant in times like this is inexcusable.


    edit - ok weird i'm seeing this is a thread from 2021 so i'm not sure how it was on the front page of the debate zone sub... weird.
    my point still stands
    you can call me pix

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  5. #13
    Cookie Tray's Avatar
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    Thank you for bumping this back up, though. I had forgotten that I responded here back in 2021, and since then I've learned even more still on the history of Palestine and Zionism.

    I knew that Zionism is completely inseparable from its imperialist ideology, as is stated in Edward Said's excerpt I linked above, but I have learned a bit more in depth as to how and why it is. In a nutshell, Zionism is the belief that the State of Israel should exist, and its existence would be majority Jewish (ethnically) and controlled exclusively by Jewish people. We would call this an ethnostate.

    It "just so happens" that this State has occupied Palestine, but if it was not Palestine, it would be another land that they would be occupying and committing the same war crimes on.


    And the last few months have made this quote from Said even more true:
    To write critically about Zionism in Palestine has therefore never meant, and does not
    mean now, being anti Semitic;; conversely, the struggle for Palestinian rights and self
    determination does not mean support for the Saudi royal family, nor for the antiquated
    and oppressive state structures of most of the Arab nations.
    One must admit, however, that all liberals and even most "radicals" have been unable to
    overcome the Zionist habit of equating anti Zionism with anti Semitism. Any well
    meaning person can thus oppose South African or American racism and at the same
    time tacitly support Zionist racial discrimination against non Jews in Palestine.

    I have to agree wholeheartedly with pppp3 here. It is a massive show of privilege to not know enough to understand, but sources are provided everywhere you look. You are doing a disservice to yourself and disrespecting all the Palestinian victims of the last century by choosing not to educate yourself and speak up for the victims of genocide when their voices have been so violently silenced.

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  7. #14
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    I have a lot of complicated feelings about this. First of all, I don't believe the country of Israel should exist, nor any religious states in general. The way that this went about is completely mind-boggling to me.

    I am a huge proponent of Land Back, and the Land Back movement. I live in a country (Canada) where colonialism has taken everything away from indigenous peoples, and I would do anything to have it rectified. It is very clear in Canada who the colonizers are. In Israel/Palestine, both groups believe that they are indigenous to the land. Your culture's past/present struggles are so ingrained into who you are that you would do anything to achieve land back, especially when you and your family are in an unsafe situation. This is a rock and a hard place scenario. I don't see how it can end.

    Maybe both groups are indigenous to the land. At different points in history, both have been displaced from their homes and suffered loss and bloodshed. I'm not an expert about the situation; I'm just posting how I feel, as I haven't been able to talk to anyone in person.
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  9. #15
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    Okay.

    I don't usually speak about this stuff because as a left wing liberal many of my friends have deeply opposing views and also because, frankly, I've dealt with a lot of antisemitism as a result of this ongoing conflict, whether intended or not.

    But I guess I'll say something here because I'm seeing dangerous language thrown around. Content warning for some extremely dark stuff.

    First, let me say clearly that I don't think a single Jewish or Palestinian child, or innocent civilian of any kind should die in the name of this conflict. I don't think Israel going to war in Gaza will solve any problems, or make anything better. Israel states it should be a light among the nations and shouldn't act like this. In my opinion Israel should ceasefire and demand that the hostages are released and the leaders of the terrorists are handed over - Hamas won't do that, obviously, but currently Israel are doing exactly what Hamas want them to do: they want them to launch a war, they want them to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible because they know that's the best way to inflame tensions in the region which may cause other ME states to act. Hamas want to draw others into the war and, ultimately, Hamas want to wipe out Israel and all Jews.

    The genocidal aim of Hamas is not in doubt. It's stated in their charter that they want every Jew dead. This is not a response to Palestinian occupation, but we'll get to that.

    I'm also going to state my personal biases here. I have Jewish and Muslim heritage. I have Israeli and Iranian heritage. My uncle by marriage was murdered by Iran for being apostate. My cousins live in a very Muslim area of Israel just outside Tel Aviv. Two of my family members were at the Nova festival where hundreds were massacred. I have family friends in the Kibbutzim where children were mutilated, bound together and burned alive. My family in Israel have protested against the government and the treatment of Palestine, as many Israelis have. I've got some strong feelings on this one.

    So, on Hamas.

    Hamas are run by Iran. They receive around 100 million dollars a year in funding directly from Iran. Their fighters are trained by Iran, and also by and in some other ME states. Their weapons have long been supplied by Iran. Many of their leaders live in luxury in Qatar.

    Beyond the millions of dollars supplied directly to Iran for the sole purpose of arming them, Palestine itself receives around a billion dollars a year in aid - most of it from the US. They have received around 40 billion dollars in aid in the last 30 years. For a country about the size of Delaware with a population of 5 million, this aid is actually very significant and could be used to help the territory thrive, but vast amounts of it are effectively stolen by Hamas (and the Palestinian Authority, and Fatah before them, and the PLO - ruling Palestine has long been a method of enrichment). Rather than improve the infrastructure of Gaza, building better hospitals and universities, improving the supply, water and power networks they spend the money on their vast network of tunnels under Gaza, actively destabilising its infrastructure.

    What you hear about Hamas using civilians as human shields is entirely true. They absolutely do base their military strata in high civilian areas, under hospitals and schools. They put rocket launchers on top of schools. Hamas know that when Israel retaliate, children will die, and they then publicise this.

    Hamas also knew that Israel would retaliate for their recent horrific attack in a stronger way than they ever have before. This attack has been planned for many months - if Palestinian citizens were actually their concern they could have stockpiled food, water, fuel and medical supplies to keep their people going through a siege. They did not. The stockpiled enough for their fighters, and for the hostages they want to use as political collateral. They leave their people to die.

    So these aren't freedom fighters, what they are fighting for isn't the freedom of Palestine, it's the destruction of Israel. This is Iran's aim, not Palestine's.

    Why now? Well, Israel was in a peace process with Saudi Arabia that was going to 'normalise relations' between them - essentially, Saudi accepting Israel as a country and starting to work on trade deals with them. This situation would have been bad for Iran.

    Since the October 7th attack, this deal is off the table and the peace process with Saudi has significantly regressed - it will take a very long time to repair.

    So. On to 'Israel as the oppressor'.

    Saying this isn't complex is saying you have zero understanding of the history or current situation in the middle east.

    First, some numbers to put things into perspective.

    The population of Israel is 9 million.

    That's roughly the population of Tokyo, or London.

    And the population aren't all Jews. Around two million of that 9 million are arabs, many of them Muslim. Many of them Palestinian. I'm also going to note that there's no structural persecution of Arabs, Muslims or Palestinians within Israel itself (is there persecution from right wing shits on an individual level, yes). There are arabs and muslims in senior roles in the supreme court, and in government. There are arabs, both muslims and christians fighting in the IDF right now. About 10 percent of Bedouin Muslims in Israel volunteer to serve in the IDF - they are not required by law to do so, unlike Jewish youth, this is entirely their choice. Israel is not a country which is oppressive to Arabs or Muslims.

    Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey, or Wales.

    Israel is surrounded by countries many hundreds of times its size, the majority of which do not recognise it as a state and many of which have stated they want to or actively tried to 'wipe it off the map'.

    Around 1 million of the 7 million Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews - this means they are Jews who have always lived in the Middle East, who are refugees in Israel, fleeing persecution in the countries they had been living in.

    This map shows the numbers of Jews who used to have homes in the Middle East and had to flee to Israel - Israel is the tiny tiny dark blue bit in between all the other large countries who hate it.

    (you need an account to see links)

    So, in the current situation with no consideration of history of of any of the lands beyond its borders, is Israel more powerful than Palestine and is Israel treating Palestine badly? Absolutely, 100 percent.

    But we can't consider this situation in a vacuum. History and the land beyond its borders do matter.

    Lets look at the history.

    Indigenous claim to the land:
    Both Palestinians and Jews have an indigenous claim to the land. Both have been there as long as we've had recorded history. I would hope this isn't in doubt by anyone. Beyond this - Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews are essentially the same people, and Ashkenazi Jews (who predominantly fled Europe after the Holocaust) have a genome that is near identical to the Palestinian genome. They're the same people. They originate from the same place. Both groups have the right to live there.

    Continuous occupation of the land:
    Both Jews and Palestinians have always lived in the land that is currently Israel and Palestine. Always, but in greater or lesser numbers.

    That's largely due to the fact that the territory has been occupied so many times. It was occupied by Macedonia (hi Amexander the great) and it was occupied to become a vassal of Rome. While occupied by Rome, the Romans beat back Jewish revolts by destroying Jerusalem and razing their second temple.

    Then it was occupied and warred over repeatedly by different Muslim ruling dynasties - this is the period when the Dome of the Rock, the Al-Aqsa Mosque and other religiously important structures were built. This is the focus of much of the religious conflict over Jerusalem today - the Al-Aqsa Mosque is built over the Second Temple, which Jews believe will also be the site of the Third Temple when the Messiah comes. Whatever you personally feel about religion, this one site is incredibly important to both faiths.

    Anyway, then the Crusaders came and took over, somewhere along the lines the Mongols occupied it, then Egypt, and then very significantly it was occupied by the Ottoman Empire for some 500 years, during which time it was known as 'Ottoman Syria'.

    So, the land has neither ben 'owned' by the Israelis or the Palestinians for over a millenia. Something that is of note is that every single one of the regimes above presided over huge massacres of Jews. The Jewish population was gradually forced to flee the land (to eventually be murdered elsewhere) but there has always been a Jewish community in that land. Under the Ottomans to greater and lesser extents the Jews were welcomed back, then treated with more hostility, then welcomed back, etc.

    Other than Israel, Jews have never had any other homeland, and have been massacred and expelled from pretty much every other country they have lived in, other than the US.

    So, cut to WW1 and England takes control of Palestine from the Ottomans. England are now the occupiers.

    There is already talk of the need for a Jewish homeland. Why? Well, for the Jews, they were weary and desperate for a Jewish State where they could be free of persecution - and this was before WW2. But for the League of Nations, it was because no where else would welcome the Jews. They were already being attacked in much of Europe. America accepted Jews but wouldn't give them territory.

    Homelands for the Jews were considered in America and inThessaloniki in Greece but ultimately the English owned Palestine, there was a significant Jewish population there already and it had many holy sites to the Jews.

    Then we had WW2.

    I'm sure people know the statistics but just in case.

    The world Jewish population before WW2 was around 15 million.
    The world Jewish population after WW2 was around 9 million.
    6 million Jews were murdered.
    2 out of every 3 Jews in Europe were murdered.

    Please take a minute to imagine 2 our of every three people you know having been murdered in the most hideous ways, while you yourself were treated as less than human. The term genocide was, quite literally, invented to describe this attempt to wipe out an entire race.

    Then please understand why describing Jews as 'white settler colonialists' in the land they originated from, after having gone back there following 2 out of 3 of them being murdered specifically for not being white is antisemitic.

    Anyway, WW2 happened and pushed the League of Nations and the UK to take action on this idea of a Jewish homeland. England had tried a fun thing called Partition in India in 1947 which went really really well (read up on the India Pakistan situation if you're not sure what happened there) and decided to do it again in the land that became Israel and Palestine.

    At that time, there was significant persecution from the Palestinian majority against the Jewish minority in the country - many attacks, etc. So it was decided that if they couldn't live together they land would have to be split.

    The Partition plan, with the land split between the Jews and Palestinians, was also complex. Palestinians were at that time kind of considered Jordanians - the land that became Palestine was going to be Transjordan initially, and Israel was going to be offered one third of the land for its own state. But that was before WW2. After WW2 there was both a bigger need for a Jewish homeland and, arguably, Britian had grown tired of dealing with the situation.

    The land was divided up so that Israel was given just over 50 percent of the territory for its homeland. Part of the reasoning behind this was that the Palestinians did also live in Jordan and other parts of the ME, while the Jews had nowhere, but obviously if they weren't going to accept giving up 1/3rd of the land, giving up 50% of it was not going to happen.

    Importantly: under partition both Jews and Palestinians were displaced from their long time homes and forced to move to the part of the country allocated to them. Yes, it took place because the Jews were arriving in larger numbers and needed a land, but both groups of current inhabitants were uprooted.

    So did Israel come and kick out the Palestinians and take their land? No, they were given it under an agreement with the League of Nations, which Arab leaders actively refused to participate in.

    Did Palestinians lose some of their lands? Yes, and so did Jews who already lived there. But this wasn't a violent act by the Jews - literally, this was a tiny group of a few hundred thousand who were fresh off the boat from being murdered in unimaginable numbers. This wasn't a warlike people coming in to take control.

    But much like Partition elsewhere, Partition here caused an endless conflict and bloodshed that hasn't stopped.

    So, did Israel immediately attack the Palestinians, occupy them and begin '75 years of oppression'?

    Hmm.

    One day after the founding of Israel, a bus full of Jewish passengers was attacked by Palestinians. Jewish communities around Jerusalem were immediately blockaded by Palestine and cut off from the rest of Israel. Military skirmishes between both groups were constant. Israel, seeking to reach its blockaded communities, attacked a village called Deir Yassin - around 100 people were murdered in this attack. Days later Palestinians attacked a Jewish hospital convoy and killed 80.

    It was, lets be clear, a shitty situation for both sides. The jews desperately needed a safe home and hadn't been given one. The Palestinians had expected autonomy over the whole territory and instead lost half of it, including many of their homes.

    But did Israel attack and occupy Palestine in 1948?

    No, Palestine was occupied by Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, who used Palestine as a base to attack Israel, beginning the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948. In this war, all those countries attacked Israel via Palestine in an attempt to 'force the Jews into the sea' and utterly destroy the new Jewish state and the survivors of European atrocities who lived there.

    In the fight back against all these Arab states, Israel won control of more land - this was not an attempt to steal land, this was necessary as they were being attacked from it. The land was used largely to provide a buffer zone between Israel and hostile territory. Some 600 - 700,000 Palestinians were displaced and you may have seen this referred to in social media hot takes as the 'Nakba' or 'Catastrophe'. It is also referred to as the Israeli war of independence. While clearly there was justified grievance on both sides after partition, this land wasn't stolen, it was claimed as a result of a direct attack on Israel.

    In 1967 came the Six Day War - Egypt, Syria and Jordan again used the Palestinian land that they occupied to launch a war against Israel. They were defeated, and this time Israel forced them out of Palestinian territory and occupied it themselves - again, as a defensive buffer against attack.

    So, you will have seen on social media that Palestine has been occupied for '75 years'. It was occupied by other ME countries from 1948 - 1967, and Israel pulled out of occupation in Gaza in 2005. The reasons Israel occupied it to begin with were defensive, not aggressive.

    On October 6th, 1973 (the date is relevant) Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur war on Israel, again using Palestine in its attacks. Israel lost some territory in this war, and ultimately a peace treaty was signed where Egypt agreed to recognise Israel's right to exist, and diplomatic relations between the two countries began.

    There have been a total of fifteen wars launched against Israel since its foundation.

    Fifteen wars, launched against a tiny country squished in between many vast countries who don't believe it has a right to exist.


    So, when we talk about who the oppressor is here, we have to look at the whole Russian Doll. Israel may have powerful backers - without America's backing, for example, there would no longer be any Israel - but Israel is in turn attacked and oppressed by its neighbours, and it has become a defensive country with sharp teeth as that is the only way it has survived until now.

    I have seen people attempt to justify the Hamas massacre by saying 'oppressed people eventually fight back' - consider then what a people driven out of every country they have ever attempted to build a home in, subject to attacks and massacres for centuries, who saw two out of three of their people murdered in the event for which the word genocide was invented, who were treated as less than human, who were sent to a place that didn't want them and immediately attacked for being there, who have seen fifteen wars launched against their tiny nation state may be willing to do to keep its small population safe?

    I also want to address the use of the term genocide to describe Israel's actions in Gaza.

    In short, it's not genocide. For one thing, the population in Gaza in 1965 was 265k and it is now 2.1mil - so if there's been an ongoing genocide it's been an incredibly unsuccessful one. The Palestinian population is growing far faster than the world jewish population. But what about the current horrific attacks on Gaza, isn't that genocide? No, it's not genocide, it is not an attempt to wipe out a specific race or group of people. Whatever you think about Israel's actions, and I certainly disagee with them, they are not trying to kill all Palestinians and they never have.

    Call it unacceptable. Call it inhumane treatment. Call it collective punisment. But using the term genocide cheapens it and, in the manner that it is often used to attack Israel by claiming they're doing as was done to them in the holocaust it is, I'm afraid, antisemitic.

    Similarly, describing Gaza as a concentration camp is inaccurate and an offensive way of using the history of genocide against the jews against them in a whole new way. There are many ways to describe Israel's oppression of Palestine - and yes, we've established they do and have oppressed Palestine, even with the context above - without resorting to language which cheapens the holocaust.

    Addressing the blockade on Palestine? Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza in 2005. In 2007 Hamas were voted into power, and then seized full power by murdering the leaders of the opposing Fatah party and dragging their bodies through the streets. Both Israel and Egypt blockaded Gaza in 2007 as a response to Hamas' aggression, attacks, and repeated smuggling of weapons. Prior to 2007 tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens had visas to travel into Israel for work. It was much easier to leave Palestine both to go into Israel or to travel elsewhere (still not easy, but much easier) and far more aid got through. The worsening situation for Gaza since 2007 is in significant part due to Hamas.

    And addressing the West Bank? The settlements in that area are criminal and should be taken down, Netanyahu is scum. In providing context to what is happening in Israel I by no means absolve it of its crimes.

    So - Free Palestine?

    Yes, Palestine should be free. But I hope the above goes some way to explain why it's really really difficult to 'free' territory whose people have been used by so many other countries, and who are currently being used by Hamas, to launch attacks on Israel.

    The desperately needed peace process can't be one sided. Israel can't be peaceful by itself, nor should higher expectations be placed on Israel than are every other country in the region.

    To free Palestine, Israel must also be allowed to be free - free from the jew hate, free from the threat of attack. If every country in the Middle East (I'm looking at you in particular, Iran) agreed on Israel's right to exist, as long as it existed as an equal state to an autonomous and free Palestine I truly think agreement could be reached. While Israel lives under threat, while I still fully believe that it should and MUST give back Palestinian land and allow aid and travel etc etc to the Palestinian people, I understand how very hard it is to make those concessions at the risk of its own people.


    I've talked forever, I really hope it's helped some people who may not know the context here. But I want to address one more thing, which is the vast rise in antisemitism in the West. It is not just disappointing but heartbreaking to me that it's currently impossible for a Jewish person to post sharing their personal pain without threats and insults. It's heartbreaking to me that people are claiming the deaths of Jews don't matter, or are justified, or are being lied about. People pull down the posters of the missing. Peopke interrupt gatherings to mourn the dead. People attack Jewish students on college campuses. Jewish children in London are warned not to be visibly Jewish. Just today an airport was invaded by a mob who wanted to attack innocent Israelis who were arriving on a plane from Tel Aviv.

    I've lived a privileged life thinking I would never have to see the hate and persecution my grandparents did. Sure, I've seen jewish friends on twitter be sent graphic holocaust pictures, or pictures of gas ovens in responses to posts they made about their faith. I've seen Temples attacked. I've seen hassidic jews spat at in the streets - all of that before all this happened - but I didn't expect what's happening now and it frightens me. Where it could lead frightens me.

    The reason many Jews feel Israel is a necessary place, is so that Jews - this tiny, tiny global minority of 15 million, compared to 2 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims - have one small scrap of land where we don't have to face antisemitism - a deep, deep generational trauma that doesn't just stretch back to the holocaust, but for our entire existence. I'm only really starting to understand that now.

    Words matter. Words like the ones I've used above matter, because they cause violence. Using zionist as a slur, or saying 'I'm not antisemitic, I'm anizionist' matters. Zionist doesn't refer to the small group of extremists who believe the whole of the land of Israel should belong to the jews - those people exist, sure, but they're not the representative group. At its fundamental level, zionism means 'a belief that the Jews should have a homeland in Israel'.

    I'll be honest, the actual location of the homeland doesn't matter much to me personally. If we'd been given Thessaloniki there would probably have been far fewer of these horrendous, horrendous problems. But statistics tend to show about 9 out of 10 Jews believe that we should have a homeland in Israel - so when you say you're not antisemitic, you're antizionist, you mean you just have a problem with 9 out of 10 Jews.

    I see a lot of non-Jews saying what is and isn't antisemitic, and I think - I would never tell a person of colour that what they feel is racist actually isn't. I would never tell a trans person what they feel is transphobic actually isn't. As a queer person, I wouldn't expect to be challenged over what I feel is homophobic. So I hope that people can understand that things that they don't feel are said with any antisemitic intent can feel intensely antisemitic on the receiving end and try to understand why.

    By all means call for free Palestine, I agree with you. Please call for an Israeli ceasefire and call Israel out on its crimes and abuses. But do try to understand why the instinct for harsh defence is there, in the same way that you understand it for the Palestinians. I would ask that with every call for a ceasefire you equally and at the same time call for Hamas to give up the hostages and surrender its leaders. Because Hamas has the capacity to do one good thing for the people of Palestine and do its part toward securing a ceasefire too. Because peace can't be one sided. Because everyone should get to be safe, and free.
    Last edited by birdies; 10-29-2023 at 10:14 PM.

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  11. #16

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    You all seem very informed. Can someone explain to me why Israel sanctioned and controlled every export to them like medical supplies, food, oil, and also allowing homes to be built in the west bank? I thought even US said this was illegal. I'm just wondering, isn't this what LEAD to Palestine rebeling? Is there nothing to blame to Israel?

  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrixlRey View Post
    You all seem very informed. Can someone explain to me why Israel sanctioned and controlled every export to them like medical supplies, food, oil, and also allowing homes to be built in the west bank? I thought even US said this was illegal. I'm just wondering, isn't this what LEAD to Palestine rebeling? Is there nothing to blame to Israel?
    I think it's fairly clear there's plenty to blame Israel for, including exercising a far too tight grip on Palestine's trade and economy.

    The main issue with trade with Palestine is that every import or export has to pass through a checkpoint. Most of these checkpoints are via the border with Israel. The reason every import and export is checked is for smuggled weaponry, but this isn't necessarily done quickly and it does slow down what Palestine can bring in and mean that the majority of their trade is done with Israel because that's simply the easiest way for them. This has a significant negative economic effect on Palestine.

    They do also have a trade route through Egpyt. Egypt also have a blockade on Gaza and check all imports and exports, and Egypt have previously closed and even bombed this route when they found weapons being smuggled through, as well as flooded tunnels under the crossing.

    Fuel is generally closely monitored, it's fully restricted currently because they're trying to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israel (alongside the air strikes Israel are carrying out, hundreds of rockets are fired into Israel daily - Israel has better air protections but they can't stop them all - this is also the reason that Israeli homes are built with bomb shelters). Hamas is known to steal fuel from aid organisations, this has been reported directly by the United Nations Relief Agency, but it's well known. Hamas do still have fuel supplies, because they're still sending rockets. Palestinian citizens do not have fuel and are in an electricity crisis which is also affecting places like hospitals.

    Water - the land of Israel and Palestine are water poor in general. There isn't enough water for the whole region, and a lot of the water comes from ground supplies. There are strict water quotas for both Israel and Palestine due to this, however Israel takes the lions share of the water, and much of the water in Gaza is desalinated water, for which they need desalination plants (a lot of homes have the capacity to desalinate water for drinking, but to supply the country plants are needed) which run on fuel, which goes back to the fuel issue above. You may have seen talk of Hamas digging up water pipes to use to make rockets and Israel filling in wells (not the traditional well we might think of, industrial wells) with cement. Both these things are true, both are also a little more complicated - Hamas probably used water pipes that were no longer in use, and the wells were filled in due to quota and supply issues. Israel absolutely should not have the control over Palestine's water that it does, Palestine should have water autonomy but water autonomy in that region requires both parties being able to trust each other and work together because there isn't unlimited water and quotas are necessary.

    The issue on whether the control Israel exercised previously was illegal has gone back in forth in courts for a long time. It may or may not be illegal but it certainly isn't right, no matter their reasons for it.

    The current situation where aid was cut off fully for days and fuel, food etc was cut off? Apparently it's not breaking international law, I don't really know how, but it doesn't overly matter: it's appalling, it punishes the wrong people and it needs to stop. Hamas have supplies for themselves anyway, they're not going to be stopped by cutting them off.

    Were the ongoing restrictions what lead to Palestine 'rebelling'? The October 7th massacre was not Palestine 'rebelling' and Hamas are not freedom fighters, nor do Hamas care about Palestinian freedom: they're a puppet of Iran. So no. Was it a factor that may have lead many young Palestinian men to hate Israel, hate Jews and be willing to be used by Hamas as tools to carry out a massacre? Yeah, almost definitely. But there's absolutely nothing that justifies or excuses in any way the nature of the acts carried out on October 7th. That was pure terrorism designed to end the peace process between Israel and Saudi and stir up tensions which had been easing.

    I'm also going to note that prior to Hamas violently seizing control in Gaza in 2007, restrictions were much less severe and as noted tens of thousands of Palestinians travelled into Israel daily for work. The blockade itself and stricter restrictions came about due to the threat from Hamas - this is also why Egypt set up a blockade. Restrictions and visas were just starting to be eased up again due to the relative peace over the last year, but that's obviously not the case now.

    Also worth noting that in both 2015 and 2021 Hamas rejected an offer from Israel to completely lift the blockade in return for a 5 year truce/ceasefire between them. Hamas would neither agree to a truce or ceasefire.

    I'm also going to add that Israelis themselves protest regularly about the treatment of Palestine, and against their own government's actions. The left-wing kibbutzim (village communities) which were attacked in the October 7th massacre were full of people who believed the situation was wrong and did what they could to help Gaza. The Nova festival itself was part of a peace promotion.
    Last edited by birdies; 10-30-2023 at 10:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    I think it's fairly clear there's plenty to blame Israel for, including exercising a far too tight grip on Palestine's trade and economy.

    The main issue with trade with Palestine is that every import or export has to pass through a checkpoint. Most of these checkpoints are via the border with Israel. The reason every import and export is checked is for smuggled weaponry, but this isn't necessarily done quickly and it does slow down what Palestine can bring in and mean that the majority of their trade is done with Israel because that's simply the easiest way for them. This has a significant negative economic effect on Palestine.

    They do also have a trade route through Egpyt. Egypt also have a blockade on Gaza and check all imports and exports, and Egypt have previously closed and even bombed this route when they found weapons being smuggled through, as well as flooded tunnels under the crossing.

    Fuel is generally closely monitored, it's fully restricted currently because they're trying to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israel (alongside the air strikes Israel are carrying out, hundreds of rockets are fired into Israel daily - Israel has better air protections but they can't stop them all - this is also the reason that Israeli homes are built with bomb shelters). Hamas is known to steal fuel from aid organisations, this has been reported directly by the United Nations Relief Agency, but it's well known. Hamas do still have fuel supplies, because they're still sending rockets. Palestinian citizens do not have fuel and are in an electricity crisis which is also affecting places like hospitals.

    Water - the land of Israel and Palestine are water poor in general. There isn't enough water for the whole region, and a lot of the water comes from ground supplies. There are strict water quotas for both Israel and Palestine due to this, however Israel takes the lions share of the water, and much of the water in Gaza is desalinated water, for which they need desalination plants (a lot of homes have the capacity to desalinate water for drinking, but to supply the country plants are needed) which run on fuel, which goes back to the fuel issue above. You may have seen talk of Hamas digging up water pipes to use to make rockets and Israel filling in wells (not the traditional well we might think of, industrial wells) with cement. Both these things are true, both are also a little more complicated - Hamas probably used water pipes that were no longer in use, and the wells were filled in due to quota and supply issues. Israel absolutely should not have the control over Palestine's water that it does, Palestine should have water autonomy but water autonomy in that region requires both parties being able to trust each other and work together because there isn't unlimited water and quotas are necessary.

    The issue on whether the control Israel exercised previously was illegal has gone back in forth in courts for a long time. It may or may not be illegal but it certainly isn't right, no matter their reasons for it.

    The current situation where aid was cut off fully for days and fuel, food etc was cut off? Apparently it's not breaking international law, I don't really know how, but it doesn't overly matter: it's appalling, it punishes the wrong people and it needs to stop. Hamas have supplies for themselves anyway, they're not going to be stopped by cutting them off.

    Were the ongoing restrictions what lead to Palestine 'rebelling'? The October 7th massacre was not Palestine 'rebelling' and Hamas are not freedom fighters, nor do Hamas care about Palestinian freedom: they're a puppet of Iran. So no. Was it a factor that may have lead many young Palestinian men to hate Israel, hate Jews and be willing to be used by Hamas as tools to carry out a massacre? Yeah, almost definitely. But there's absolutely nothing that justifies or excuses in any way the nature of the acts carried out on October 7th. That was pure terrorism designed to end the peace process between Israel and Saudi and stir up tensions which had been easing.

    I'm also going to note that prior to Hamas violently seizing control in Gaza in 2007, restrictions were much less severe and as noted tens of thousands of Palestinians travelled into Israel daily for work. The blockade itself and stricter restrictions came about due to the threat from Hamas - this is also why Egypt set up a blockade. Restrictions and visas were just starting to be eased up again due to the relative peace over the last year, but that's obviously not the case now.

    Also worth noting that in both 2015 and 2021 Hamas rejected an offer from Israel to completely lift the blockade in return for a 5 year truce/ceasefire between them. Hamas would neither agree to a truce or ceasefire.

    I'm also going to add that Israelis themselves protest regularly about the treatment of Palestine, and against their own government's actions. The left-wing kibbutzim (village communities) which were attacked in the October 7th massacre were full of people who believed the situation was wrong and did what they could to help Gaza. The Nova festival itself was part of a peace promotion.
    Thanks for this information. Why do you think the mainstream media seem to push Isreel so much, as in the government wants everyone to support Israel. What monetary gain are we to have from it? We get into so many wars, and I know we only go into war if it benefits us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    Okay.

    I don't usually speak about this stuff because as a left wing liberal many of my friends have deeply opposing views and also because, frankly, I've dealt with a lot of antisemitism as a result of this ongoing conflict, whether intended or not.
    I will say the anti-semitism spewing out at the moment is abhorrent and should be denounced immediately. Unfortunately this situation has led to all the rank anti semetic goblins to come crawling out from under their bridges to spew hate and it's disgusting. I'm sorry you are experiencing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    In my opinion Israel should ceasefire and demand that the hostages are released and the leaders of the terrorists are handed over - Hamas won't do that, obviously, but currently Israel are doing exactly what Hamas want them to do: they want them to launch a war, they want them to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible because they know that's the best way to inflame tensions in the region which may cause other ME states to act. Hamas want to draw others into the war and, ultimately, Hamas want to wipe out Israel and all Jews.
    HAMAS has asked for a ceasfire, Netanyahu rejected it. The whole point of holding these hostages is to use them in exchange for the thousands of Palestinians being held without trial in prison for an undetermined amount of time. There's even a video that was released of 3 female Israeli hostages where one woman is screaming bloody murder for a ceasefire, to release the Palestinian hostages (as an exchange) and essentially berating the Isreali govt for continuing the bombardment of Gaza, leaving all the hostages at risk of death. Hamas WANTS to return the hostages, Netanyahu wants war.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    The genocidal aim of Hamas is not in doubt. It's stated in their charter that they want every Jew dead.
    Have you read their charter?? Obviously not.
    (you need an account to see links) (it's translated into english but the point still stands...) "16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."

    I'm not backing hamas and saying they're the good guys.. what they did on Oct 7th was deplorable.. I didn't come here to defend their actions. All I am saying is anger directed at people who have been forced into living like prisoners in their own country is misguided. Anger about what happened should be directed at the OCCUPATION THAT MADE THIS POSSIBLE/ INEVITABLE. Human RIghts Activists had been warning for MONTHS that a violent escalation was bound to happen. Violence in the West Bank from racist settlers was at an all time high, illegal incarcerations also... The Israeli govt ignored these warnings. They even WANTED hamas to gain power and influence as having a radical Islamist party in power would "split" Palestine in two. Keep them fighting amongst themselves rather than joining together as one people... Netenyahu literally said “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,”.... so don't blame Palestine for Hamas.. blame the occupation. I will also say I found this: (you need an account to see links) episode of the Dig to be extremely informative on how Hamas was created, why they turned to armed resistance, how they were funded and why they became the political leaders of Palestine.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post

    Indigenous claim to the land:
    Both Palestinians and Jews have an indigenous claim to the land. Both have been there as long as we've had recorded history. I would hope this isn't in doubt by anyone. Beyond this - Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews are essentially the same people, and Ashkenazi Jews (who predominantly fled Europe after the Holocaust) have a genome that is near identical to the Palestinian genome. They're the same people. They originate from the same place. Both groups have the right to live there.

    .....
    Other than Israel, Jews have never had any other homeland, and have been massacred and expelled from pretty much every other country they have lived in, other than the US.
    Jews absolutely do have a deep history with Palestine, no one is doubting that. And you are correct, the Jewish people did not had a "homeland" in the traditional sense, but this did not give anyone the right to forcibly remove the indigenous people who were CURRENTLY living there. Especially when you consider that Palestine wasn't the only place considered... Israel could very well have been placed in Africa or the NT of Australia. Zionism wasn't even a popular ideology until after WWII, it always has been a controversial ideology, even amongst Jewish folks themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post


    Then please understand why describing Jews as 'white settler colonialists' in the land they originated from, after having gone back there following 2 out of 3 of them being murdered specifically for not being white is antisemitic.
    Zionism is LITERALLY settler colonialism though.. a bunch of immigrant settlers arrive and colonise the land where people already lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post


    The land was divided up so that Israel was given just over 50 percent of the territory for its homeland. Part of the reasoning behind this was that the Palestinians did also live in Jordan and other parts of the ME, while the Jews had nowhere, but obviously if they weren't going to accept giving up 1/3rd of the land, giving up 50% of it was not going to happen.
    Of course they rejected it.. it was just over 50% but it contained MOST of the fertile land, established olive groves and orange orchards... I think from memory it was about 80% of the established farmland went to the Jewish half.. they also lost a direct trade route to Syria and their most important sea port. I'd say no to a proposal like that as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post

    So did Israel come and kick out the Palestinians and take their land? No, they were given it under an agreement with the League of Nations, which Arab leaders actively refused to participate in.
    Once again, of course they did... Anyone would reject such a shitty deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    Some 600 - 700,000 Palestinians were displaced and you may have seen this referred to in social media hot takes as the 'Nakba' or 'Catastrophe'. It is also referred to as the Israeli war of independence.
    Not gonna lie... to see you refer to the Nakba as a "social media hot take" is pretty revolting.


    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    In 1967 came the Six Day War - Egypt, Syria and Jordan again used the Palestinian land that they occupied to launch a war against Israel. They were defeated, and this time Israel forced them out of Palestinian territory and occupied it themselves - again, as a defensive buffer against attack.

    So, you will have seen on social media that Palestine has been occupied for '75 years'. It was occupied by other ME countries from 1948 - 1967, and Israel pulled out of occupation in Gaza in 2005. The reasons Israel occupied it to begin with were defensive, not aggressive.

    On October 6th, 1973 (the date is relevant) Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur war on Israel, again using Palestine in its attacks. Israel lost some territory in this war, and ultimately a peace treaty was signed where Egypt agreed to recognise Israel's right to exist, and diplomatic relations between the two countries began.

    There have been a total of fifteen wars launched against Israel since its foundation.

    Fifteen wars, launched against a tiny country squished in between many vast countries who don't believe it has a right to exist.


    So, when we talk about who the oppressor is here, we have to look at the whole Russian Doll. Israel may have powerful backers - without America's backing, for example, there would no longer be any Israel - but Israel is in turn attacked and oppressed by its neighbours, and it has become a defensive country with sharp teeth as that is the only way it has survived until now.
    So, all of this is interesting history, but I really don't see the relevance when we're discussing the brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. Israel IS oppressing Palestinians. Look at Gaza, look at the ever shrinking West Bank.. The govt and IDF literally encourage illegal settlements. If you're a Palestinian you're treated as sub human. If you're an Israeli "arab" (a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship) you're treated as a second class citizen. You can't walk on certain streets, you have a different coloured number plate, you can't drive on certain roads, no one will rent to you in the "jewish" areas if you're an arab... THAT IS OPPRESSION.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    I have seen people attempt to justify the Hamas massacre by saying 'oppressed people eventually fight back' - consider then what a people driven out of every country they have ever attempted to build a home in, subject to attacks and massacres for centuries, who saw two out of three of their people murdered in the event for which the word genocide was invented, who were treated as less than human, who were sent to a place that didn't want them and immediately attacked for being there, who have seen fifteen wars launched against their tiny nation state may be willing to do to keep its small population safe?
    If "keeping your country safe" involves literal Apartheid then I'm sorry you don't deserve a country.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    I also want to address the use of the term genocide to describe Israel's actions in Gaza.
    Oh here we go....

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    In short, it's not genocide. For one thing, the population in Gaza in 1965 was 265k and it is now 2.1mil - so if there's been an ongoing genocide it's been an incredibly unsuccessful one. The Palestinian population is growing far faster than the world jewish population. But what about the current horrific attacks on Gaza, isn't that genocide? No, it's not genocide, it is not an attempt to wipe out a specific race or group of people. Whatever you think about Israel's actions, and I certainly disagee with them, they are not trying to kill all Palestinians and they never have.
    ???? An incremental genocide is still genocide. Annexing an entire population into a tiny area, limiting their food imports, keeping 90+% of water unpotable... then in the West Bank, forcing entire villages to relocate and disperse or else suffer violent retribution, cut off water, electricity... THAT IS GENOCIDAL. Even some of the Israeli folks being interviewed on the news are using the most heinous genocidal language...
    “I apologize, but there are no innocent civilians in Gaza,”
    “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948,”
    “We need a disproportionate response … If all the captives are not returned immediately, turn the strip into a slaughterhouse. If a hair falls from their head - execute security prisoners. Violate any norm, on the way to victory,”
    “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

    ......
    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    Call it unacceptable. Call it inhumane treatment. Call it collective punisment. But using the term genocide cheapens it and, in the manner that it is often used to attack Israel by claiming they're doing as was done to them in the holocaust it is, I'm afraid, antisemitic.
    it IS GENOCIDAL. and to hide behind the Holocaust/ anti semite card is honestly so lazy. What happened in the holocaust was BARBARIC. It stands alone in history as one of the ugliest things humans have ever done. but that does NOT mean Israel isn't commiting genocide. It's different, for sure, but it is still genocidal.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    Similarly, describing Gaza as a concentration camp is inaccurate and an offensive way of using the history of genocide against the jews against them in a whole new way. There are many ways to describe Israel's oppression of Palestine - and yes, we've established they do and have oppressed Palestine, even with the context above - without resorting to language which cheapens the holocaust.
    Not to do the whole "dictionary definition" thing here, but : "a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution. "
    A very famous ISRAELI sociologist Baruch Kimmerling described Gaza as "the largest concentration camp ever to exist". Academic Norman Finkelstein (who's entire extended family was exterminated in Auschwitz btw) called Gaza “the World's Largest Concentration Camp”. So it's not such a wild take.



    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    Addressing the blockade on Palestine? Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza in 2005. In 2007 Hamas were voted into power, and then seized full power by murdering the leaders of the opposing Fatah party and dragging their bodies through the streets. Both Israel and Egypt blockaded Gaza in 2007 as a response to Hamas' aggression, attacks, and repeated smuggling of weapons. Prior to 2007 tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens had visas to travel into Israel for work. It was much easier to leave Palestine both to go into Israel or to travel elsewhere (still not easy, but much easier) and far more aid got through. The worsening situation for Gaza since 2007 is in significant part due to Hamas.
    So Hamas being violent radicals justifies the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians? Literally this morning I woke up to the news that Israel bombed a line of Ambulances attempting to carry injured civilliants out into Egypt... many medics, civilians, journalists have died.. what has this got to do with Hamas? Hamas hamas hamas.... Ive seen some pretty shoooocking videos taken by the IDF in recent days, stomach churning videos where soldiers are blindfolding, torturing, humiliating Palestinian civillians. If Hamas are a terrorist organisation, the IDF are in the same boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    And addressing the West Bank? The settlements in that area are criminal and should be taken down, Netanyahu is scum. In providing context to what is happening in Israel I by no means absolve it of its crimes.
    At least we agree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    So - Free Palestine?

    Yes, Palestine should be free. But I hope the above goes some way to explain why it's really really difficult to 'free' territory whose people have been used by so many other countries, and who are currently being used by Hamas, to launch attacks on Israel.

    The desperately needed peace process can't be one sided. Israel can't be peaceful by itself, nor should higher expectations be placed on Israel than are every other country in the region.
    Lmao.. Israel has NEVER been peaceful that is the whole point. Of course it will be a difficult situation but something MUST be done. You can't keep an entire population living like dogs, under violent apartheid indefinitely. Something has to change, and the one holding the power is ISRAEL.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post

    I've talked forever, I really hope it's helped some people who may not know the context here. But I want to address one more thing, which is the vast rise in antisemitism in the West. It is not just disappointing but heartbreaking to me that it's currently impossible for a Jewish person to post sharing their personal pain without threats and insults. It's heartbreaking to me that people are claiming the deaths of Jews don't matter, or are justified, or are being lied about. People pull down the posters of the missing. Peopke interrupt gatherings to mourn the dead. People attack Jewish students on college campuses. Jewish children in London are warned not to be visibly Jewish. Just today an airport was invaded by a mob who wanted to attack innocent Israelis who were arriving on a plane from Tel Aviv.
    The anti semitism, and islamaphobia spewing out of the world right now is appalling... unfortunately there will always be ugly people who use times like this to be hateful and ignorant. It's horrible. I will say however that being anti-zionist isn't inherently anti-semetic, there are thousands of jewish voices currently calling out the violent zionist regime.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    I've lived a privileged life thinking I would never have to see the hate and persecution my grandparents did. Sure, I've seen jewish friends on twitter be sent graphic holocaust pictures, or pictures of gas ovens in responses to posts they made about their faith. I've seen Temples attacked. I've seen hassidic jews spat at in the streets - all of that before all this happened - but I didn't expect what's happening now and it frightens me. Where it could lead frightens me.
    The majority of the western world is still 100% supporting Israel. You are NOT experiencing what your grandparents did in the holocaust.. You talk about "cheapening" the holocaust, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing by comparing what is happening now with then. Yikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post

    Words matter. Words like the ones I've used above matter, because they cause violence. Using zionist as a slur, or saying 'I'm not antisemitic, I'm anizionist' matters. Zionist doesn't refer to the small group of extremists who believe the whole of the land of Israel should belong to the jews - those people exist, sure, but they're not the representative group. At its fundamental level, zionism means 'a belief that the Jews should have a homeland in Israel'.

    I'll be honest, the actual location of the homeland doesn't matter much to me personally. If we'd been given Thessaloniki there would probably have been far fewer of these horrendous, horrendous problems. But statistics tend to show about 9 out of 10 Jews believe that we should have a homeland in Israel - so when you say you're not antisemitic, you're antizionist, you mean you just have a problem with 9 out of 10 Jews.

    I see a lot of non-Jews saying what is and isn't antisemitic, and I think - I would never tell a person of colour that what they feel is racist actually isn't. I would never tell a trans person what they feel is transphobic actually isn't. As a queer person, I wouldn't expect to be challenged over what I feel is homophobic. So I hope that people can understand that things that they don't feel are said with any antisemitic intent can feel intensely antisemitic on the receiving end and try to understand why.
    What about all the anti zionist jews? When you hide behind the anti semetic trope whenever someone criticises Israel you are discrediting all of the jewish folks who disagree with you, you are discrediting Israeli activists who have dedicated their lives to ending the occupation, you are painting everyone with a broad brush which is not only lazy it is unacceptable.
    You can call it anti semetic, but you are wrong. Sure, some people will use it as an excuse to be anti semetic, but thhat does not mean that ALL criticism is so. It's honestly that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdies View Post
    By all means call for free Palestine, I agree with you. Please call for an Israeli ceasefire and call Israel out on its crimes and abuses. But do try to understand why the instinct for harsh defence is there, in the same way that you understand it for the Palestinians. I would ask that with every call for a ceasefire you equally and at the same time call for Hamas to give up the hostages and surrender its leaders. Because Hamas has the capacity to do one good thing for the people of Palestine and do its part toward securing a ceasefire too. Because peace can't be one sided. Because everyone should get to be safe, and free.
    Absolutely. Ceasefire now. Begin the motions to ENDING the occupation. Free Gaza, free the hostages on both sides, eradicate the fascist alt right Israeli Govt, eradicate Hamas, give all Palestinians the same rights as Israeli citizens.
    FREE PALESTINE.



    ALSO!! To anyone who is interested, I made a playlist of various podcasts regarding this issue. Various sources including Israeli activists living in Israel, Palestinian voices, both living in Palestine and in diaspora, various scholars and academics who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject. If anyone wants to dive into some interesting and educational episodes here's a link: (you need an account to see links)

    There's episodes explaining what HAMAS is, the history of the piece of land we know as Israel/ Palestine, why anti zionist Jewish voices are so important right now, media bias when discussing Palestine etc etc. Totals just over 9 hours so you could easily get through them all in a few days.


    P.S not to be a stickler but in another reply you say : "The Nova festival itself was part of a peace promotion. " .... this is not true. Idk why the media spun Nova as a "peace festival" when it was just a regular old doof. Psytrance party. Nothing overly peaceful about these things. Universo Parallello is a south American festival promoter and they have parties all over the world. Nothing to do with "peace in Israel". Being a part of the psytrance community myself I also know people directly affected by the Nova massacre.. my partner could very well have been PLAYING there as he was meant to go on tour in Israel last month but it was cancelled last minute. I am SO grateful he was not there. But to play up on the "peace festival" narrative is disingenuous.

    P.P.S!
    For anyone interested: (you need an account to see links)

    Edit 3: for anyone claiming anti-Zionism is anti- Semitic: (you need an account to see links)
    Last edited by pppp3; 11-04-2023 at 03:37 AM.
    you can call me pix

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    Feels bad, man. I have been reading up on the histories of both people prior to the recent conflict, and it's a shame that there were moments where compromises between both sides were almost realized before something ruined it. It's also a grim reminder that the rules based international order is a farce and only works when you are on the "right" side. There has been a lot of posturing from the Islamic world but I do not think that they will be doing anything to stop this conflict. Sorry to say but I think the Palestinians are completely fucked at the rate it's going even if a ceasefire miraculously happens (it won't, the Israelis are out for blood this time). Any attempts to quell the conflict through outside force will result in a bigger clusterfuck that no nation, not even Iran, will be interested in causing. The only thing I, as an individual can do, is to donate to help the victims of the war and hope that they can receive the aid they desperately need.

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