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Thread: Gun Law in America

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern View Post
    I might of got some of the information wrong, I haven't watched the video since it was released. It seems to have something to do with renewing your license or being exempt from having to have photo ID, I'm not that familiar with how the whole process works in order to get a gun. Here it is regardless if it's accurate or not:


    I'm not subscribed to Rebel anymore or certain news outlets because I don't want to become extremely biased or locked in some echo chamber. But they have done some interesting investigating about these sort of things or the lack of border control etc.
    That's pretty interesting! It's so strange that they're afraid to offend people's religion for something this important.
    Also what's up with that girl's accent? I'm from Canada and I've never heard that before lol

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drizzy View Post
    America is too far gone to have any semblance of gun control
    Any shady character will be able to get one or a FUCK tonne if they wanted
    A lot of people, liberals included, would probably still oppose any changes to gun ownership because ultimately it's an American right
    I used to be pretty Aussie in my thinking but I've also seen how life can be here.
    The population is far too large, gun ownership is pretty high and gun distribution too vast
    In the short term, all that will be achieved is that honest hard working civilians will be disarmed
    Leaving guns in the hands of the underbelly of society (who would stockpile for days and weeks and months) and the second largest killer of people (who already have ammunition for months and years) as old mate Misha pointed out
    Any changes implemented will manifest themselves in the long run but that's the thing - even if guns were made illegal EVENTUALLY - so many would still be sold under the table that it would still put regular people at a disadvantage


    But this is what I know
    Having a gun doesn't make me feel any safer
    And I'm being honest (I have a Glock 9), I don't feel safer with it
    I just feel a little more in control with it.
    And the only way I'll give up my gun is if EVERYONE from Boston to Compton has theirs confiscated
    Cos i'll be damned if I have a run-in, have a gun pointed at my head and I can't do shit about it
    Thank you thank you thank you.

    Finally. Someone gets it. I really, sincerely, wish more people would open their views and listen and actually take in this information.

    Oh and hi bud, hope the states are treating you right. You still out in Cali?



    Anyway, I found that information. Here goes:

    There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:

    � 65% of those deaths are by suicide which would never be prevented by gun laws
    � 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified
    � 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons � gun violence
    � 3% are accidental discharge deaths

    So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Well, first, how are those deaths spanned across the nation?
    � 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
    � 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
    � 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
    � 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

    So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.

    This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.

    Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, so it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equally, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.

    Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault all is done by criminals and thinking that criminals will obey laws is ludicrous. That's why they are criminals.

    But what about other deaths each year?
    � 40,000+ die from a drug overdose�THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!
    � 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths
    � 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide)

    Now it gets good:
    � 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer in Chicago than when you are in a hospital!

    � 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It�s time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If Obama and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides......Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions!

    So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple.:
    Taking away guns gives control to governments.

    The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

    Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs.

    So the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force at the command of Congress can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power."

    Remember, when it comes to "gun control," the important word is �control," not �gun."
    **** SOURCE: FBI .gov on gun stats. Numerous sources on the other things such as cardiac arrest, etc., easy google searches. Then simply do the math in percentages.



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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misha View Post
    Thank you thank you thank you.

    Finally. Someone gets it. I really, sincerely, wish more people would open their views and listen and actually take in this information.

    Oh and hi bud, hope the states are treating you right. You still out in Cali?



    Anyway, I found that information. Here goes:

    There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:

    • 65% of those deaths are by suicide which would never be prevented by gun laws
    • 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified
    • 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – gun violence
    • 3% are accidental discharge deaths

    So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Well, first, how are those deaths spanned across the nation?
    • 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
    • 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
    • 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
    • 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

    So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.

    This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.

    Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, so it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equally, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.

    Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault all is done by criminals and thinking that criminals will obey laws is ludicrous. That's why they are criminals.

    But what about other deaths each year?
    • 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!
    • 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths
    • 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide)

    Now it gets good:
    • 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer in Chicago than when you are in a hospital!

    • 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If Obama and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides......Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions!

    So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple.:
    Taking away guns gives control to governments.

    The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

    Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs.

    So the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force at the command of Congress can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power."

    Remember, when it comes to "gun control," the important word is “control," not “gun."
    **** SOURCE: FBI .gov on gun stats. Numerous sources on the other things such as cardiac arrest, etc., easy google searches. Then simply do the math in percentages.



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    There is a lot of misleading information here. I haven't verified the numbers you gave but using what you have:
    First of all, 30 000/ 300 000 000 = 0.01%, not 0.000000925% - I have no idea how you came up this but it makes me question the rest of your numbers
    More importantly though, gun control isn't JUST about that number. You can't ignore the terror, paranoia, and tragedy that comes from watching a homocide take place on the news every other weak. It destroys trust in your community, trust in the government and in your police force.

    Suicide risk is highly linked to guns in the house actually. Depressed people need time and medication to get well, like any disease. Having guns in the house means they have easy access to a way to kill themselves.

    Medical errors - this number is again hugely misleading because any death in the hospital that has ANY medical error (from a typo in a note to something actually relevant) is counted. This means that many of these people would have died regardless. But ridiculous amounts of money are being pumped into the healthcare system to prevent this anyway.

    Heart disease - again, huge amounts of money is pumped into the healthcare system to prevent cardiac disease. This does not mean we can't focus on other causes of death as well.

    As for "giving control to governments" - this is pretty ridiculous. We have a corrupt government now, with a monkey of a president and absolutely no focus on helping the average person. Do you see people using their guns to take control? This concept comes from hundreds of years ago and is irrelevant now.

    I don't completely disagree with guns but we need a population that is well educated and a system in place to prevent those guns from landing in the hands of people with bad intentions to be able to allow them.

    Oh and here are some numbers that are verified by the BBC:

    There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker, which catalogues such incidents. A mass shooting is defined as a single shooting incident which kills or injures four or more people, including the assailant.

    School shootings: There were 64 school shootings in 2015, according to a dedicated campaign group set up in the wake of the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre in Connecticut in 2012.

    How the US compares: The number of gun murders per capita in the US in 2012 - the most recent year for comparable statistics - was nearly 30 times that in the UK, at 2.9 per 100,000 compared with just 0.1.
    Of all the murders in the US in 2012, 60% were by firearm compared with 31% in Canada, 18.2% in Australia, and just 10% in the UK.

    So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.

    The US spends more than a trillion dollars per year defending itself against terrorism, which kills a tiny fraction of the number of people killed by ordinary gun crime.
    Last edited by bbuilder; 10-07-2017 at 09:44 AM.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbuilder View Post
    There is a lot of misleading information here. I haven't verified the numbers you gave but using what you have:
    First of all, 30 000/ 300 000 000 = 0.01%, not 0.000000925% - I have no idea how you came up this but it makes me question the rest of your numbers
    More importantly though, gun control isn't JUST about that number. You can't ignore the terror, paranoia, and tragedy that comes from watching a homocide take place on the news every other weak. It destroys trust in your community, trust in the government and in your police force.

    Suicide risk is highly linked to guns in the house actually. Depressed people need time and medication to get well, like any disease. Having guns in the house means they have easy access to a way to kill themselves.

    Medical errors - this number is again hugely misleading because any death in the hospital that has ANY medical error (from a typo in a note to something actually relevant) is counted. This means that many of these people would have died regardless. But ridiculous amounts of money are being pumped into the healthcare system to prevent this anyway.

    Heart disease - again, huge amounts of money is pumped into the healthcare system to prevent cardiac disease. This does not mean we can't focus on other causes of death as well.

    As for "giving control to governments" - this is pretty ridiculous. We have a corrupt government now, with a monkey of a president and absolutely no focus on helping the average person. Do you see people using their guns to take control? This concept comes from hundreds of years ago and is irrelevant now.

    I don't completely disagree with guns but we need a population that is well educated and a system in place to prevent those guns from landing in the hands of people with bad intentions to be able to allow them.

    Oh and here are some numbers that are verified by the BBC:
    So your argument against the numbers I posted, was numbers you posted? Kinda folds in on itself when you point out the suicide risk numbers (those people would have killed themselves regardless of the guns) and pointing out the medical errors as a retort to that. I did not come up with those statistics, someone else did, I just found it to be a good case as to why gun control doesn't work.

    Gun control will NEVER EVER work in the United States. Never. No matter what you want. No matter what anyone thinks it will accomplish. It will. Not. Work.

    Chicago, Detroit, California. 3 examples of highly strict gun control laws. The gun crime in Chicago alone is larger than most other states COMBINED. Criminals will ALWAYS find a way. Always.

    I get why people want guns to be more heavily regulated or banned. I sincerely get it. In the wrong hands, they are the most dangerous tools a person can hold. It just can't work for us. It can't. I wish I knew the answer, but evil will ALWAYS find a way.(you need an account to see links)
    Last edited by Misha; 10-07-2017 at 10:39 AM.

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misha View Post
    So your argument against the numbers I posted, was numbers you posted? Kinda folds in on itself when you point out the suicide risk numbers (those people would have killed themselves regardless of the guns) and pointing out the medical errors as a retort to that. I did not come up with those statistics, someone else did, I just found it to be a good case as to why gun control doesn't work.

    Gun control will NEVER EVER work in the United States. Never. No matter what you want. No matter what anyone thinks it will accomplish. It will. Not. Work.

    Chicago, Detroit, California. 3 examples of highly strict gun control laws. The gun crime in Chicago alone is larger than most other states COMBINED. Criminals will ALWAYS find a way. Always.

    I get why people want guns to be more heavily regulated or banned. I sincerely get it. In the wrong hands, they are the most dangerous tools a person can hold. It just can't work for us. It can't. I wish I knew the answer, but evil will ALWAYS find a way.(you need an account to see links)
    How do you know gun control won't work in the US? I mean honestly, as a Canadian, I don't understand how people can look at the media, be horrified about the genocides, but then turn around and say "oh well this sucks but i'm sure giving everyone a gun isn't a part of it". Especially since countries with strict gun laws have already shown much less gun crime

    Also, for suicide victims, I don't really agree that "those people would have killed themselves anyway". Take a look at this few sentences from a NEJM article:
    (you need an account to see links)

    "Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2

    Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal.

    Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often."

    Oh and that number in your calculator is a fraction bud, you have to multiply it by 100 to get a percentage

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbuilder View Post
    How do you know gun control won't work in the US? I mean honestly, as a Canadian, I don't understand how people can look at the media, be horrified about the genocides, but then turn around and say "oh well this sucks but i'm sure giving everyone a gun isn't a part of it". Especially since countries with strict gun laws have already shown much less gun crime

    Also, for suicide victims, I don't really agree that "those people would have killed themselves anyway". Take a look at this few sentences from a NEJM article:
    (you need an account to see links)

    "Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2

    Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal.

    Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often."

    Oh and that number in your calculator is a fraction bud, you have to multiply it by 100 to get a percentage
    I'm no good at math, haven't been in school for 11 years lol

    We can just agree to disagree here, if that's cool? I don't want to get to a point of anger over a discussion of opposing opinions which will never sway the other. It's always going to be a bad thing for people who have little gun knowledge, live in a different country, or just dislike guns in general. And that's fine. You have your views, and I have mine. Do I think there's things that could be done to help with gun violence? Sure. More vetting, vigilant mental health evaluations. Banning them completely? Hell no. Look at Brazil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbuilder View Post
    That's pretty interesting! It's so strange that they're afraid to offend people's religion for something this important.
    Also what's up with that girl's accent? I'm from Canada and I've never heard that before lol
    No idea I think she must just have a really nasally voice xD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misha View Post
    I'm no good at math, haven't been in school for 11 years lol

    We can just agree to disagree here, if that's cool? I don't want to get to a point of anger over a discussion of opposing opinions which will never sway the other. It's always going to be a bad thing for people who have little gun knowledge, live in a different country, or just dislike guns in general. And that's fine. You have your views, and I have mine. Do I think there's things that could be done to help with gun violence? Sure. More vetting, vigilant mental health evaluations. Banning them completely? Hell no. Look at Brazil.
    Yep that's cool. I'm glad people are talking about it at least!

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    The thing is, fully automatic weapons ARE illegal. Those pushing for gun control want to ban assault rifles, and the assault rifles sold in America are not automatic. Personally, I think they're going to universally come to the conclusion that people are going to get fully automatic weapons regardless (the ones that are said to have been used in the events like in Vegas) and that the only thing to do is to take the neccessary steps to have a tighter control over SOCIETY. And in my opinion will be a step towards an Orwellian type socitey. I think thats their end game, the ones pushing for gun control.

    Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbuilder View Post
    How do you know gun control won't work in the US?
    Because if the government sends anyone into MY state or into MY house to confiscate MY weapons, I promise you, I will go down in a blaze of crazy, fucking, freedom-blasting glory.

    And so will millions of other Americans. Our National Guard and Reserves are civilians 28 days out of the month. They are much bigger than our active duty brethren and they all know they're allowed and encouraged to own weapons.

    We are actively told to disobey any orders that are not lawful. Taking guns out of the hands of any authorized American citizen is an unlawful order because our second amendment is a RIGHT.

    That is why gun control will not work in America. And as Misha stated with factual facts of factually factness: The areas with the strictest gun control have the most gun crime because only criminals are armed. You think disarming the entire US will fix that? Let me introduce you to Mexico. They stepped in when we made drugs illegal, and i assure you, lovely person, they will step in when guns are illegal.

    You cannot change who we are. We will have guns. We will always have guns. And they will have to kill us, before we give them up, but once again, the military is armed and authorized to say no to a tyrannical government.

    So you guys can all sit in your little peace-circle in here and discuss how nice a utopia will be. Not gonna happen. Ever.

    ---------- Post added at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Misha View Post
    Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs.

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