Proposed Law Would Force Churches to Host Gay Weddings [Archive]

Ronith

05-10-2012, 04:51 PM

How can the law force them, does the government have power over church in US?

No one at any level in your government has a right to tell the pastor of a church how he is to use that church. Churches aren't built with taxpayer money.

Many churches have all kinds of events and seminars on a regular basis. The events typically involve the members of the church. Most churches only have 2 services a week. And as far as how the pastor uses that church...that's no one's business but his and the congregation.

The proposed ordinance is clearly aimed at picking a fight with a local church. Probably sponsored behind the scenes by money from the homosexual lobby. The motives behind this ordinance are clearly wrong.

J_L_K_64

05-10-2012, 04:55 PM

No one at any level in your government has a right to tell the pastor of a church how he is to use that church. Churches aren't built with taxpayer money.

Many churches have all kinds of events and seminars on a regular basis. The events typically involve the members of the church. Most churches only have 2 services a week. And as far as how the pastor uses that church...that's no one's business but his and the congregation.

The proposed ordinance is clearly aimed at picking a fight with a local church. Probably sponsored behind the scenes by money from the homosexual lobby. The motives behind this ordinance are clearly wrong.

i agreed with that up until you said that it might be secretly sponsored by homosexual lobby behind the scenes, i think it's just democrats going to town trying to make everything equal for everyone, which is ok, to a point, that point being when you force others to do things that is against their beliefs/religions whatever

that being said, i'd like to declare that i do not follow one single religion, and would like to see how this turns out

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 04:56 PM

If the church is ran by sh*t said in the bible, then they can't really allow gays getting married in church, can they? Or do the 21st century churches go where money leads them?

Azn

05-10-2012, 05:03 PM

First of all Kansas doesn't have same sex marriage.

“They (churches) could not deny renting space to a gay couple if they want to have a party,” he told Fox News. “This is just another example of government creating a law imposing upon the freedom of religion and basically telling churches what they can and can’t do.”

Who would pick to have a party in a church? Especially over a gay bar... This wouldn't be a problem if people would stop renting out their church buildings like it's an apartment. Amen.

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------

If the church is ran by sh*t said in the bible, then they can't really allow gays getting married in church, can they? Or do the 21st century churches go where money leads them?

You have people who are divorced running churches. I've even seen a pastor with tattoos. Like homosexuality, all of these things are sins.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Let's not forget about Catholic priests sexually abusing children.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 05:07 PM

Hey, if you wanna be gay fine by me, go start your own homosexual church and stop trying to make my heterosexual church to accept your ways, problem solved.

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 05:08 PM

Eh, religion has always been BS to me. I can't be bothered going into an argument about it with my few religious acquaintances, they just can't be reasoned with.

Rain

05-10-2012, 05:15 PM

How do you know homosexuality is a sin? Out of curiosity. It never appeared until later, when someone decided to translate a word - which they didn't know what it meant - to 'homosexuality' and from then on it was considered 'bad'. But if people actually read up on historical details, rather than accepting every single thing that is thrown their way - as you would say, "They go to church, not to learn, but to be indoctrinated," - then maybe there wouldn't be this huge fucking fuss about it. Lol. I find the whole thing pretty stupid. ;D

The words "homosexual" and "homosexuality" do not appear in the Bible-at least they are absent from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The authors of the Bible did not understand sexual orientation; this term was only developed in the late 19th century. The writers had comprehension of same-sex relationships, or sex with persons of the same gender. Thus, when you see one of these terms in an English translation of the Bible, it is accurate. The word "homosexual" first appeared in an American Bible in 1973, the New International Version (NIV). It seems to have appeared in a version in the United Kingdom, the (NEB), a few years earlier.

yamakracker

05-10-2012, 05:17 PM

I'm a devout Christian.

But this all seems like a 1st world problem to me.

And yes I've read what all of you guys wrote and even some more news.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 05:21 PM

I'm a devout Christian.

But this all seems like a 1st world problem to me.

And yes I've read what all of you guys wrote and even some more news.

Goverment religion.

Chi

05-10-2012, 05:52 PM

LOL! I'm sorry but that is complete bullshit and I'm an outsider.

1) You are linking a fox news article.
Fox

News

2) Its YOUR election period

No one at any level in your government has a right to tell the pastor of a church how he is to use that church. Churches aren't built with taxpayer money.

Many churches have all kinds of events and seminars on a regular basis. The events typically involve the members of the church. Most churches only have 2 services a week. And as far as how the pastor uses that church...that's no one's business but his and the congregation.

What the fuck? Of course churches are funded by taxpayers money. They are also tax exempt! Of course the government should have SOME control over how a church is run. If churches promote bigotry, hateful, spiteful, sexist, racist messages to children (and adults alike) they should be punished and should be monitored. [Only registered and activated users can see links] shit like this is wrong. Referring to normal people as "homos" is wrong, you are one step away from calling them faggot >.>

There are always going to be white supremacy groups but people look at them and see what they are. In 20-40 years time people are going to look back on discriminatory groups christian, jewish and islamic groups and look at them in shame. Stop making a big deal about it, let them have basic human rights and for the love of humanity don't use fox news as your source for information.

Marriage was NOT a ceremony created by Christians >.> nor is it exclusive to Christianity.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
The bible approves of all types of marriages that are considered immoral today. Lets just say they didn't get it right >.>

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:00 PM

What the fuck? Of course churches are funded by taxpayers money. They are also tax exempt! Of course the government should have SOME control over how a church is run. If churches promote bigotry, hateful, spiteful, sexist, racist messages to children (and adults alike) they should be punished and should be monitored. [Only registered and activated users can see links] shit like this is wrong. Referring to normal people as "homos" is wrong, you are one step away from calling them faggot >.>

So government coming in and telling churches how they should practice their beliefs would be a rational form of government bigotry towards the churches beliefs. If the government gets to dictate a churches beliefs and how they use their facilities, how would that not be the government coming in and establishing a religion. The reason the people left England to come to the new world was to get away from the state run churches of England. The founders of this country new this, and that is the reason the first reads "The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion" instead of separation of church and state like everyone now days is taught. You do realize that once you are ok with one group of people freedoms not being protected, you are advocating the government being able to trample on everyone's freedom.

Slasher

05-10-2012, 06:09 PM

thequeen

05-10-2012, 06:11 PM

Jesus was a homosexual.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:13 PM

I don't know if the government could really force churches to do gay marriages... But why couldn't christians accept everyone as they are and give them the same rights? Bible said this and that... but who has never committed any sin? Why would two people of the same sex doing a sin? They are loving each other.

Marriage, the centuries old religeous ceremony now controlled by the State. Awesome.

How about the State get its greedy little hands off of the religeous ceremony and everything will be fine. Quit giving benefits to one group of people over another. I don't care if you are straight, gay, just living together, whatever, get the Government out of the marriage business and all this will go away.

If you are gay and your church doesn't accept that, find a new church. If you're straight and your church accepts gays and you don't like that, find a new church.

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:13 PM

So government coming in and telling churches how they should practice their beliefs would be a rational form of government bigotry towards the churches beliefs. If the government gets to dictate a churches beliefs and how they use their facilities, how would that not be the government coming in and establishing a religion. The reason the people left England to come to the new world was to get away from the state run churches of England. The founders of this country new this, and that is the reason the first reads "The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion" instead of separation of church and state like everyone now days is taught. You do realize that once you are ok with one group of people freedoms not being protected, you are advocating the government being able to trample on everyone's freedom.

Excuse me? The church has overstepped its boundaries a long time ago. The bible is quite the opposite of freedom and is seen by looking at the hierarchical structure of the bible AND religious institutions across the globe. The bible is based on dictatorship and theocracy. Where there is slavery, classes of sex and race, and a whole lot of restrictions of freedom including the freedom of thought and the process of dissent.

Yes, people should have their freedom but freedom is false in the first place. No one is entirely free no matter how they want to look at it. Where is the freedom for LGBT individuals to get married? Churches have FAR too much influence over public laws including marriage, euthanasia and contraception AND education. My main issue with the churches opinions over these issues is that all these issues are CHOICE orientated. If the law passed allowing euthanasia it doesn't mean EVERYONE has to have euthanasia. Its the same with contraception and its the same with marriage. I also have an issue with churches influencing education and deciding what is right for children should be learning. Its okay to advocate for creation and ignore other factual teachings? Its okay to advocate and teach abstinence in sexual education classes and not contraception and the concept of safe sex?

My issue with your post is that you are linking a fox news article, the most bias and subjective news station in the western world that often pushes its own agendas. There is no way that any government is going to force them to conduct gay marriages and there are many alternate places for the LGBT to go to. Its just typical bad journalism, sensationalizing and exaggerating a topic and getting people defensive and worked up who will then spread this misinformation to other people, skewing peoples view on government and altering their votes.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:17 PM

How do you know homosexuality is a sin? Out of curiosity. It never appeared until later, when someone decided to translate a word - which they didn't know what it meant - to 'homosexuality' and from then on it was considered 'bad'. But if people actually read up on historical details, rather than accepting every single thing that is thrown their way - as you would say, "They go to church, not to learn, but to be indoctrinated," - then maybe there wouldn't be this huge fucking fuss about it. Lol. I find the whole thing pretty stupid. ;D

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Adam, or Even and Eve.
Pretty sure it's well understood what "God" thought. :P
How else would procreation happen? It wouldn't get very far if the first two people in the world were of the same gender.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

I'm a devout Christian.
But this all seems like a 1st world problem to me.
And yes I've read what all of you guys wrote and even some more news.

Yeah, it is a first world problem.
I think that's pretty obvious.
But so is the topic of homosexuality and just about any other topic being debated now a days.
Point??

Slasher

05-10-2012, 06:17 PM

Goal of a governement is also to make the more people happy with their decisions. If legalizing the gay marriage is giving more votes to Obama, why shouldn't he legalize it?

J_L_K_64

05-10-2012, 06:18 PM

this is turning into a good debate, let's keep it nice and orderly though, y'all

Slasher

05-10-2012, 06:20 PM

God haven't created old man to like little kids. Difference is that two persons of the same sex loving each other is not hurting them.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:20 PM

Goal of a governement is also to make the more people happy with their decisions. If legalizing the gay marriage is giving more votes to Obama, why shouldn't he legalize it?

-facepalm-

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:23 PM

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Adam, or Even and Eve.
Pretty sure it's well understood what "God" thought. :P
How else would procreation happen? It wouldn't get very far if the first two people in the world were of the same gender.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

Yeah, it is a first world problem.
I think that's pretty obvious.
But so is the topic of homosexuality and just about any other topic being debated now a days.
Point??

But it doesn't matter what 'God' did. There is clear evidence that there was never one single man and one single woman >.> So that rule shouldn't even apply.

Whilst there are people who are homosexual it does not mean that everyone is going to stop procreating. There are people with FAR many children and far too many children in the foster care system and adoption centers. The world is over populated and if anything homosexuality will slightly reduce over-population and atleast give children the chance to be adopted by loving parents.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:24 PM

For our next trick, let's force Jews and Muslims to serve pork at all masses! :)

Goal of a governement is also to make the more people happy with their decisions. If legalizing the gay marriage is giving more votes to Obama, why shouldn't he legalize it?

Well the government is supposed to fear the people, not the other way around.
If government is supposed to make people happy with their decisions, then our government has been failing for a long time.

And that second bit? lol
You think it's cool if he legalizes it for the sole purpose of getting more votes?
Really?

God haven't created old man to like little kids. Difference is that two persons of the same sex loving each other is not hurting them.

How do you know that?
Maybe they were born with a preference towards younger kids.
Some pedophiles might argue their case that way, saying they were born that way and they had no choice.

Just as gay people argue THEY were born that way and it wasn't up to them...

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:25 PM

God haven't created old man to like little kids. Difference is that two persons of the same sex loving each other is not hurting them.
Seriously, if you believe in "god", then you must say that "god" made the old men who like little kids.

Andrew has made the most sense in this thread.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:26 PM

But it doesn't matter what 'God' did. There is clear evidence that there was never one single man and one single woman >.> So that rule shouldn't even apply.

Whilst there are people who are homosexual it does not mean that everyone is going to stop procreating. There are people with FAR many children and far too many children in the foster care system and adoption centers. The world is over populated and if anything homosexuality will slightly reduce over-population and atleast give children the chance to be adopted by loving parents.

Well if you are Christian, that's what we believe.
If you aren't then I also respect your views there as well. :)

But at the same time, if you don't believe in God and the Bible, etc etc... why do you want to get married in a church?
Go take your business elsewhere instead of stomping on other people's beliefs, ya know?

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

Seriously, if you believe in "god", then you must say that "god" made the old men who like little kids.

I do believe in God, and I do think that he made them.
But I don't believe that he made them with them "pre-programmed" to like little kids. And I also don't think people are "born gay".

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:28 PM

Well if you are Christian, that's what we believe.
If you aren't then I also respect your views there as well. :)

But at the same time, if you don't believe in God and the Bible, etc etc... why do you want to get married in a church?
Go take your business elsewhere instead of stomping on other people's beliefs, ya know?

Exactly.
What really bugs me is that gay couples would even want to be married by a Christian church, even the new testament condemns homosexuality. I don't see anything wrong with having a religious function for marriage but doing it with a religion that completely condemns you to hell is a little strange.

Bottom line the government should have no say in the affairs on the church or vice versa, if a church refuses marriage based on their religious beliefs that should be it.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:28 PM

Whilst there are people who are homosexual it does not mean that everyone is going to stop procreating. There are people with FAR many children and far too many children in the foster care system and adoption centers. The world is over populated and if anything homosexuality will slightly reduce over-population and atleast give children the chance to be adopted by loving parents.

This is true, there are many children in foster care and such, but legalizing gay marriage won't change that lol.
It's not like once it's passed every gay couple is gonna rush off and adopt kids... they could do that now if they REALLY wanted to :P

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:29 PM

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:30 PM

How do you know that?
Maybe they were born with a preference towards younger kids.
Some pedophiles might argue their case that way, saying they were born that way and they had no choice.

Just as gay people argue THEY were born that way and it wasn't up to them...

Actually it was quite common in all Abrahamic religions to marry your children off to older men, and most commonly accepted in Islam. Furthermore it is generally accepted in history as being common place and in some cultures today still relevant. The difference is humans have decided that it is immoral, because we understand how the world works and in particular how the mind develops and the psychology of the mind. Furthermore society has changed. When people died at 40, 10 really wasn't all that young to have a child. We now have education and medicine that prolongs childhood and lifespan in general to about 70-80 in the western world so there is no moral reason for a child to get married at a young age. Simillarily thats why there are laws in most modernized countries restricting the age of consensual marriage to 18...I won't get into forced marriages and marriages accepted by parents.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:30 PM

Blame the society on turning decent straight men into gays. My old classmate, from whom I would have never believed it, went gay first year of college. I was seriously WTF. All the attention the gays are getting, who wouldn't want to be noted.

If your friend turned gay for the sole purpose of getting attention.... There is is something seriously wrong with that picture.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:32 PM

I mean, with all that said, I'm not against gay marriage, I don't hate gay people or have anything against gay people.

My stance is essentially, live and let live.
Let them get married to the one they love.
Let them live out their life together, do what makes them happy.

But don't expect me to change everything and bend all the rules to accommodate.
In other words, I'll give you and inch, but don't take a mile.

---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------

Blame the society on turning decent straight men into gays. My old classmate, from whom I would have never believed it, went gay first year of college. I was seriously WTF. All the attention the gays are getting, who wouldn't want to be noted.

THISSSSSSSSS

It's almost like being gay is now the "cool" thing to do, and if you speak against it or say anything negative, you are shunned.
Seriously, it's getting a little bit ridiculous imo.

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:32 PM

I do believe in God, and I do think that he made them.
But I don't believe that he made them with them "pre-programmed" to like little kids. And I also don't think people are "born gay".

Well you can believe all you want but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it applicable to law.

I can believe that if I jump off a 60 storey building I'm going to fly. It doesn't mean that I will >.>

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:35 PM

If your friend turned gay for the sole purpose of getting attention.... There is is something seriously wrong with that picture.
I didn't say he turned because of that, the two parts of my post aren't dependent on each other :D

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Well you can believe all you want but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it applicable to law.

I can believe that if I jump off a 60 storey building I'm going to fly. It doesn't mean that I will >.>

It makes it right in their eyes, who are you to judge what's right and what isn't.

You will fly, for a while.

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:35 PM

Blame the society on turning decent straight men into gays. My old classmate, from whom I would have never believed it, went gay first year of college. I was seriously WTF. All the attention the gays are getting, who wouldn't want to be noticed.

Please, the majority of homosexuals are born 'gay'. You don't ween yourself onto cock >.> You are insulting alot of people who struggle with their sexuality and are ashamed to come out as gay in fear.

Its just like teenage girls that go through their 'bi-sexual phase'. Some people are curious sexually. It doesn't mean they are going to get married and it doesn't give you a right to care or stick your nose in their sexual life

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:35 PM

Well you can believe all you want but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it applicable to law.
I can believe that if I jump off a 60 storey building I'm going to fly. It doesn't mean that I will >.>

I don't under stand where you are going with this...
You are comparing apples and bananas.
Nothing I said was in regards to the law really.
I was agreeing with the previous point that if I believe in God, then I must also believe he makes pedophiles.
My response was, I do believe he made them.
I don't believe that he made them "perdophiles" per say, I believe he made them as humans and they in turned decided that they liked younger children, that was their preference.

And in the same respect, I don't believe people are "born gay", I feel like it is a choice that you make.
We could go off and argue about just this point alone all day as well, but that's just my stance on things.

J_L_K_64

05-10-2012, 06:36 PM

I

You will fly, for a while.

i'd like to point out that flying and falling are 2 totally different things............. just throwing that out there

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:37 PM

Please, the majority of homosexuals are born 'gay'. You don't ween yourself onto cock >.> You are insulting alot of people who struggle with their sexuality and are ashamed to come out as gay in fear.
Its just like teenage girls that go through their 'bi-sexual phase'. Some people are curious sexually. It doesn't mean they are going to get married and it doesn't give you a right to care or stick your nose in their sexual life

That's just like you telling me I can believe what I want, but I'm wrong...
Seriously. I will respect your view point that people are "born gay", but we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
I just don't buy it. I don't see how you can possibly be born gay. Until they find a gene to prove that it is in your DNA, I don't see that as truth. :P

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

i'd like to point out that flying and falling are 2 totally different things............. just throwing that out there

This isn't flying...
This is falling, with style

/toy story ;)

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:37 PM

[/COLOR]

It makes it right in their eyes, who are you to judge what's right and what isn't.

You will fly, for a while.

It is inherently wrong though to base law on the fact that I will believe I can fly

(I.e we build staircases and elevators in buildings and generally the top floor of the building is sealed off or has heavy security to stop me jumping off)

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:40 PM

It makes it right in their eyes, who are you to judge what's right and what isn't.

You will fly, for a while.
Another one who tosses the constitution in the trash. You're the one with the double standard. You want freedom from religion, not of religion. The Government has no place interfering in the affairs of the church unless laws are being broken.

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Please, the majority of homosexuals are born 'gay'. You don't ween yourself onto cock >.> You are insulting alot of people who struggle with their sexuality and are ashamed to come out as gay in fear.

Oh please, now you are being full of shit. There is no "gay" gene.

I bet you(or your frind) are one of those people who are like "I am gay, gimme more rights!!!"

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:41 PM

Another one who tosses the constitution in the trash. You're the one with the double standard. You want freedom from religion, not of religion. The Government has no place interfering in the affairs of the church unless laws are being broken.

You just solved your own problem. Restriction of human rights is breaking the law and especially international laws. And religious institution interferes with this ALL the time not only in america.

What happens in their house, their bed, their community does not effect you personally >.> I'm going to repaste what I said about your original article because this 'discussion' isn't even valid because of the OP.

My issue with your post is that you are linking a fox news article, the most bias and subjective news station in the western world that often pushes its own agendas. There is no way that any government is going to force them to conduct gay marriages and there are many alternate places for the LGBT to go to. Its just typical bad journalism, sensationalizing and exaggerating a topic and getting people defensive and worked up who will then spread this misinformation to other people, skewing peoples view on government and altering their votes.

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:42 PM

Please, the majority of homosexuals are born 'gay'. You don't ween yourself onto cock >.> You are insulting alot of people who struggle with their sexuality and are ashamed to come out as gay in fear.

Its just like teenage girls that go through their 'bi-sexual phase'. Some people are curious sexually. It doesn't mean they are going to get married and it doesn't give you a right to care or stick your nose in their sexual life

Uhm, seriously, I must agree with Andrew on this one, you aren't born gay. I insult a lot of people? You say I don't have the right to care, so I don't care. Sexual curiosity? Maybe they are curious about the taste of cock. I ain't sticking my nose in there. Gays can screw all they want, who am I to judge them and who are you to judge me.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

i'd like to point out that flying and falling are 2 totally different things............. just throwing that out there
Hush, you, I knew that.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:45 PM

What happens in their house, their bed, their community does not effect you personally >.> I'm going to repaste what I said about your original article because this 'discussion' isn't even valid because of the OP.

............Wow

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:46 PM

You just solved your own problem. Restriction of human rights is breaking the law and especially international laws. And religious institution interferes with this ALL the time not only in america.

What happens in their house, their bed, their community does not effect you personally >.> I'm going to repaste what I said about your original article because this 'discussion' isn't even valid because of the OP.

My issue with your post is that you are linking a fox news article, the most bias and subjective news station in the western world that often pushes its own agendas. There is no way that any government is going to force them to conduct gay marriages and there are many alternate places for the LGBT to go to. Its just typical bad journalism, sensationalizing and exaggerating a topic and getting people defensive and worked up who will then spread this misinformation to other people, skewing peoples view on government and altering their votes.

Well Fox has some credibility even though they may be biased.
Who knows, maybe a headline will come out tomorrow on a network you think is more unbiased saying the same thing.
I think the point is, it's not too far fetched to believe something like this could happen with how things are right now.

And regardless, I think we had a good debate about things in either case.

Uhm, seriously, I must agree with Andrew on this one, you aren't born gay. I insult a lot of people? You say I don't have the right to care, so I don't care. Sexual curiosity? Maybe they are curious about the taste of cock. I ain't sticking my nose in there. Gays can screw all they want, who am I to judge them and who are you to judge me.

Now now :P
See I actually enjoyed this debate.
Usually when something comes up like this it's always people who seemingly extreme supporters of gays, and it's really frustrating.
I try to stay open and see everyone's views because I think it is always interesting to see what others think. But especially on another forum, I tried to express my views and all I got was attacked for the littlest shit because I wouldn't just on the gay bandwagon so to speak.

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:47 PM

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:47 PM

Another one who tosses the constitution in the trash. You're the one with the double standard. You want freedom from religion, not of religion. The Government has no place interfering in the affairs of the church unless laws are being broken.[COLOR="Silver"]

I don't want anything from nor of religion. As long as you ain't shoving it down my throat, we are cool. Since I don't live in the States, I can't care about the constitution.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:50 PM

I am honestly going to stop now because I'm debating with a brick wall.

Wow, lmao. It should be alarming that law makers would even waste the time and money to push laws that are so obviously overbearing and unconstitutional.

If you don't understand that people can be born with the preference for the same sex or enjoy the same sex MORE then its not even worth talking.
Because it's not true. Back it up with proof. Lets see it.

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:50 PM

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:51 PM

I am honestly going to stop now because I'm debating with a brick wall.
If you don't understand that people can be born with the preference for the same sex or enjoy the same sex MORE then its not even worth talking.
Even if they aren't born gay there is no reason for you to stop them from being happy, and getting married and having the same groundings in the legal word as a heterosexual couple does >.>

I don't understand WHY you think this. Like, I have heard this argument countless times. But there are arguments for and against this idea.
Why do you think people are "born gay"? Who is to say they aren't? I'm genuinely curious to see why you feel this way.

As for the last bit, read the beginning of the thread. I, personally am not denying them anything.
In layman's terms, "live and let live", like I said earlier.
They can get married, live their life and be happy. I don't think a piece of paper should stand in their way or prevent them from doing so.
I don't think they should get married in a church, at least a christian church, because it is against my beliefs. But if they wanna do it somewhere else, more power to them. I'm not gonna show up and try to ruin it! :P

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:52 PM

Wow, lmao. It should be alarming that law makers would even waste the time and money to push laws that are so obviously overbearing and unconstitutional.

Because it's not true. Back it up with proof. Lets see it.

Maybe if you stopped reading crap from places like fox news and read credible, scientific journal articles you can understand the psychology of homosexuality >.>

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Ronith

05-10-2012, 06:53 PM

Maybe if you stopped reading crap from places like fox news and read credible, scientific journal articles you can understand the psychology of homosexuality >.>

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

A link to google. Nice.

I read more then fox news, just so you know.

No one is inherently born gay.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 06:55 PM

Maybe if you stopped reading crap from places like fox news and read credible, scientific journal articles you can understand the psychology of homosexuality >.>

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I agree with Ronith on this one.
What is the purpose of that link.
Why do you personally think people are born gay. I don't get it.

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:55 PM

A link to google. Nice.

I read more then fox news, just so you know.

No one is inherently born gay.

No its not a link to google, its a link to google Scholar which are search results to a large amount of peer-reviewed scientific studies including studies of biology, psychology and sociology >.> I'm not going to baby sit you. Go and read yourself.

There is no way I personally am going to convince you, go read and go educate yourself. There are multiple schools of thought and a vast amount of history of the study of homosexuality which I don't have the time nor the patience to explain or write about. I also don't want to waste my own time explaining to get the response "Lawl, god says no"

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 06:57 PM

No its not a link to google, its a link to google Scholar which are search results to a large amount of peer-reviewed scientific studies including studies of biology, psychology and sociology >.> I'm not going to baby sit you. Go and read yourself.
So you pretty much google-scholared "homosexuality" and talk like you've read every single one of the articles.

Chi

05-10-2012, 06:58 PM

So you pretty much google-scholared "homosexuality" and talk like you've read every single one of the articles.

No I haven't but I have read enough to make in informed decision that they are human beings that deserve the same human rights as everyone else >.> And I have read enough to get to that point >.>

Just by looking at the titles of the articles you can see that homosexuality is not limited to the 21st century world >.>

Ronith

05-10-2012, 07:00 PM

No its not a link to google, its a link to google Scholar which are search results to a large amount of peer-reviewed scientific studies including studies of biology, psychology and sociology >.> I'm not going to baby sit you. Go and read yourself.

Since you seem to be under the impression I live under a rock and only see Fox News, here is what I watch and read:

CP24
BBC
FOX NEWS
CBC
Al Jazeera English

Wall Street Journal
Toronto Star
New York Times
Investors Business Daily
Detroit Free Press
Financial Times
The Globe and Mail
The Washington Post

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

No I haven't but I have read enough to make in informed decision that they are human beings that deserve the same human rights as everyone else >.> And I have read enough to get to that point >.>

Just by looking at the titles of the articles you can see that homosexuality is not limited to the 21st century world >.>
You didn't even bother reading it. lol wow.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 07:01 PM

No I haven't but I have read enough to make in informed decision that they are human beings that deserve the same human rights as everyone else >.> And I have read enough to get to that point >.>

Just by looking at the titles of the articles you can see that homosexuality is not limited to the 21st century world >.>

I'm trying to take you seriously, but we are back to talking about something completely different.
We understand that they should be treated a certain way. And it's obvious homosexuality goes back for centuries.
But why do you think people are BORN GAY?
I don't follow there. Do you just think that because you do?

Chi

05-10-2012, 07:04 PM

Since you seem to be under the impression I live under a rock and only see Fox News, here is what I watch and read:

CP24
BBC
FOX NEWS
CBC
Al Jazeera English

Wall Street Journal
Toronto Star
New York Times
Investors Business Daily
Detroit Free Press
Financial Times
The Globe and Mail
The Washington Post

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

You didn't even bother reading it. lol wow.

None of those are scientific....>.>
I'm not going to read 220k articles nor do I have the time, I've read an substantial amount.

....
People may be predetermined neurologically to develop a particular type of sexual orientation OR they may develop a particular type of sexual orientation regardless. They may not be born with it but that implies that it is some sort of disease or disability. Its just like an eating disorder. You aren't born with anorexia nervosa but some studies suggest that some people are predispositioned to develop the ED.

My point is I'm not saying people are born explicitly gay (and I'm not saying that they are not). It could be multiple factors including gene factor, brain structure (neuroconnections), simple sexual preferences, chemical composition, hormonal...the list goes on and on. My point is they aren't simply faking it nor can they explicitly choose to be gay or not. I'm sure if they could many would opt to be 'straight'. Why would you put yourself through pain for attention?

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 07:05 PM

No I haven't but I have read enough to make in informed decision that they are human beings that deserve the same human rights as everyone else >.> And I have read enough to get to that point >.>
Clearly you aren't reading these posts, since I stated, that I have nothing against them and they can do whatever they want, get married, pound butts etc. Where did I or anyone else state that they aren't human beings who don't deserve the same rights? If some of us are religious and don't believe they should get married in a church of their religion, who are you to say that they most certainly have the right, because you say so.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 07:06 PM

None of those are scientific....>.>
I'm not going to read 220k articles nor do I have the time, I've read an substantial amount.

....
Great. Then basically you have posted nothing but anecdotal evidence. (:

Chi

05-10-2012, 07:09 PM

Clearly you aren't reading these posts, since I stated, that I have nothing against them and they can do whatever they want, get married, pound butts etc. Where did I or anyone else state that they aren't human beings who don't deserve the same rights? If some of us are religious and don't believe they should get married in a church of their religion, who are you to say that they most certainly have the right, because you say so.

I'm not saying they should get married in churches >.> The point is that the article portrays the government in a poor light and in an unfactual way (it isn't even my government).

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 07:12 PM

I'm not saying they should get married in churches >.> The point is that the article portrays the government in a poor light and in an unfactual way (it isn't even my government).
Marrying in a church was just an example, what you were saying was, that we are denying them of any equality.

This thread has moved far, far away from the government.

Azn

05-10-2012, 07:32 PM

There really is no point in arguing about it. You people that are against same sex marriage are going to lose the fight.
It's going to be legal... it doesn't matter if it's in 40-50 years, it will be legal.

You see this picture? Look at how stupid they all look: This is plastered all over textbooks.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

In a few decades, this picture is going to be in textbooks: And you idiots are going to look just as retarded as those who went against interracial marriages.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

So have fun.

It doesn't look like God is going to stop creating gays anytime soon.

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 07:35 PM

SmileYaDead

05-10-2012, 07:37 PM

There really is no point in arguing about it. You people that are against same sex marriage are going to lose the fight.
It's going to be legal... it doesn't matter if it's in 40-50 years, it will be legal.

You see this picture? Look at how stupid they all look: This is plastered all over textbooks.

In a few decades, this picture is going to be in textbooks: And you idiots are going to look just as retarded as those who went against interracial marriages.

So have fun.

It doesn't look like God is going to stop creating gays anytime soon.

Did you even read the whole thread? I'd advise you to pick your words better.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 07:40 PM

Azn

05-10-2012, 07:41 PM

@Azn ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
We were having a perfectly civil debate until you posted that stuff ;)

I don't think anybody here is lobbying to vote against gays...so maybe you should read through the thread again. :P

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

aka, it doesn't look like people are going to stop deciding to be gay anytime soon?

I read the thread. The fact that you guys think that's it a choice is absurd as the people in the picture saying that race mixing is communism.
I guess by your statement, if people aren't going to stop being gay anytime soon and the percentage of support keeps increasing, equality will be the law of the land :)

So what are the advantages of choosing to be gay, can you tell me that? ;):P I definitely chose to make my life harder and make people from the world's 3 largest religions hate me.

Chi

05-10-2012, 08:01 PM

I read the thread. The fact that you guys think that's it a choice is absurd as the people in the picture saying that race mixing is communism.
I guess by your statement, if people aren't going to stop being gay anytime soon and the percentage of support keeps increasing, equality will be the law of the land :)

So what are the advantages of choosing to be gay, can you tell me that? ;):P I definitely chose to make my life harder and make people from the world's 3 largest religions hate me.

It just can't be choice. Its not a choice to be bullied, beaten and forced to be an outcast and then pushed to suicide (and Murdered in the past). Of course they can back up their claim that being gay is a choice because they said at the age 12 that they're going to be straight and like vagina (sarcasm).

The psychology of sexuality is not black and white >.> Just like being a woman and a man is not black and white. (I am agreeing with you Azn sorry if it seems otherwise)

Ronith

05-10-2012, 08:10 PM

Slasher

05-10-2012, 08:14 PM

I don't understand WHY you think this. Like, I have heard this argument countless times. But there are arguments for and against this idea.
Why do you think people are "born gay"? Who is to say they aren't? I'm genuinely curious to see why you feel this way.

As for the last bit, read the beginning of the thread. I, personally am not denying them anything.
In layman's terms, "live and let live", like I said earlier.
They can get married, live their life and be happy. I don't think a piece of paper should stand in their way or prevent them from doing so.
I don't think they should get married in a church, at least a christian church, because it is against my beliefs. But if they wanna do it somewhere else, more power to them. I'm not gonna show up and try to ruin it! :P

I think people can be born gay or developp their sexual orientation. No saying this with any predjudice, but lot of gays are acting more 'female' in their tastes and way of moving. Those guys are not chosing to be that way later in their life, they are like that when they are kid.
And even if it wasn't a kind of gene, I don't think they couldn't have the right to marry. I'm sure a lot of gays believe in god even if lot of people in their religion think that homosexuality is bad. I don't think that anyone will truly change its mind.

Azn

05-10-2012, 08:15 PM

It just can't be choice. Its not a choice to be bullied, beaten and forced to be an outcast and then pushed to suicide (and Murdered in the past). Of course they can back up their claim that being gay is a choice because they said at the age 12 that they're going to be straight and like vagina (sarcasm).

The psychology of sexuality is not black and white >.> Just like being a woman and a man is not black and white. (I am agreeing with you Azn sorry if it seems otherwise)

Yeah I agree with you. I was just using his own logic against him. I know it's not a choice because honestly, it's not a choice I would have made.

I have three teeth towards the front of my mouth that are fake, so it's a constant remainder of the pain. In my junior year of high school, I got jumped outside of school for being gay. One guy smashed my head into the concrete floor, while the other two continued to kick and punch me. They broke my wrist which healed of course, but the most painful thing is the teeth... They don't come back no matter what :( So no, it's not someone I would've chose for myself.

To everyone:
Meh, I gotta go, but this thread was fun. I'm only so hyped up cause I deal with a lot of this everyday. Please don't take what I say personally.

Ronith

05-10-2012, 08:18 PM

Yeah I agree with you. I was just using his own logic against him. I know it's not a choice because honestly, it's not a choice I would have made.

I have three teeth towards the front of my mouth that are fake, so it's a constant remainder of the pain. In my junior year of high school, I got jumped outside of school for being gay. One guy smashed my head into the concrete floor, while the other two continued to kick and punch me. They broke my wrist which healed of course, but the most painful thing is the teeth... They don't come back no matter what :( So no, it's not someone I would've chose for myself.

To everyone:
Meh, I gotta go, but this thread was fun. I'm only so hyped up cause I deal with a lot of this everyday. Please don't take what I say personally.
Did they say they bullied you because you were gay?

I_royalty_I

05-10-2012, 08:18 PM

It just can't be choice. Its not a choice to be bullied, beaten and forced to be an outcast and then pushed to suicide (and Murdered in the past). Of course they can back up their claim that being gay is a choice because they said at the age 12 that they're going to be straight and like vagina (sarcasm).

The psychology of sexuality is not black and white >.> Just like being a woman and a man is not black and white. (I am agreeing with you Azn sorry if it seems otherwise)

You can be bullied and beat up for many things in life.
Hell, if you wear the same clothes, are too smart/stupid, or even if you talk different, people will make fun of you and bully you.
The world is a cruel place. I don't really see gays as having it extremely worse off than anybody else.

Everybody acts like it's so bad to talk out against gays, but then they claim the gays have it so bad.
Most people that I have talked to have said they simply don't care, are tolerant, or are supportive in every way possible.
With this mindset being a pretty common one, I don't see why gays should get special sympathy.

How is being a man or woman not black and white?
Either you're a man...or you're a woman.
There are transgendered people, but I always thought it was pretty clear cut? :P

Slasher

05-10-2012, 08:23 PM

Man is becoming crazy when he suffers. When he is scared, he will either hide or fight. Man is not always patient.

kariyuki

05-10-2012, 08:40 PM

It'll be shot down, no way can they pass this law because it simply violates the 1st amendment. :P

Chi

05-10-2012, 08:48 PM

You can be bullied and beat up for many things in life.
Hell, if you wear the same clothes, are too smart/stupid, or even if you talk different, people will make fun of you and bully you.
The world is a cruel place. I don't really see gays as having it extremely worse off than anybody else.

Everybody acts like it's so bad to talk out against gays, but then they claim the gays have it so bad.
Most people that I have talked to have said they simply don't care, are tolerant, or are supportive in every way possible.
With this mindset being a pretty common one, I don't see why gays should get special sympathy.

How is being a man or woman not black and white?
Either you're a man...or you're a woman.
There are transgendered people, but I always thought it was pretty clear cut? :P

Male and female is clear cut. That describes the physiology of both.

Man and woman is not as clear cut. What is a man? Is it someone who works in a suit and is CEO or someone who runs a ranch? Is one less of a man than another. It goes the same for women and each culture has its own interpretation of what a woman is and what a man is.

My point is you would personally never choose to stack on the kilos, become insanely obese JUST to be bullied and teased at school >.> If anything its environmental due to your parent's diets.
Imo there is no way a person will choose to be gay in a society where being gay means physical and mental torment. In some societies being gay means the death penalty >.> No one would choose death >.>

Yes people are bullied randomly but no one goes and presents behaviors to exemplify the bullying >.>

Harry Potter

05-11-2012, 08:48 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To be honest, nothing really suprises me anymore. What's next? A law that says pediphiles & convicted sex offenders can be Elementary School Teachers?

So, liberals want to pass a law that says it's ok for homos to get married in God's house.

What are these f*cking idiots doing besides trying to turn Christianity into their preferable "politically correct" religion?

I think you need to be more worried about priests being pedophiles and sex offenders.

And lastly, to each their own. If two gay people want to get married so be it. I dont think the church should be forced into doing it but they should do it out of free will. I dont believe people choose to be gay and I think society and churches especially should be ashamed of themselves and how they treat gay people.

Ronith

05-11-2012, 11:44 AM

I think you need to be more worried about priests being pedophiles and sex offenders.

And lastly, to each their own. If two gay people want to get married so be it. I dont think the church should be forced into doing it but they should do it out of free will. I dont believe people choose to be gay and I think society and churches especially should be ashamed of themselves and how they treat gay people.

Okay, ignoring the religious side of the thread..

Government NEVER should have had any say in marriage anyway. They should have given "civil union" licenses regardless of the sexual orientation of the union and let the participants call it what they want. Marriage is, at its root, a religious definition of the relationship anyway, not a government invention.

Chi

05-11-2012, 06:15 PM

Okay, ignoring the religious side of the thread..

Government NEVER should have had any say in marriage anyway. They should have given "civil union" licenses regardless of the sexual orientation of the union and let the participants call it what they want. Marriage is, at its root, a religious definition of the relationship anyway, not a government invention.

Marriage is not religious, its a cultural, societal and legal process and marriage ceremonies are different in each religion and culture.

Ronith

05-11-2012, 07:59 PM

Marriage is not religious, its a cultural, societal and legal process and marriage ceremonies are different in each religion and culture.

Then why are they so hell bent on getting married in a church lol.

Chi

05-11-2012, 09:19 PM

Then why are they so hell bent on getting married in a church lol.

They aren't >.> Whilst some maybe christian and want to get married in a church (there are churches which accept homosexuality)(and I should also note there are jewish, islamic, buddist, hindu individuals who have the same sexual preference for the same sex who most probably want to get married in their traditional and cultural place of worship) the majority just want to get married and gain the same legal rights as married heterosexual couples and be recognised as a married couple in all states (and eventually all countries) >.> Just because fox news says they want to get married in a church doesn't mean its true.

bc.m

05-12-2012, 12:52 AM

I'm pro-LGBT but I do think for this case, churches should have the right to their own ceremonies... I don't think the govt have to interfere and force their rules on the church. If the church is willing so be it, if not, leave them alone. :s

Ophelia

05-12-2012, 03:10 PM

When I saw "force" in the title, I already knew what side of the debate you were on ;-)

"God is love." (1 John 4:8)

Interesting, since all these sorts of debates seem to make is a lot of hate. A question- why would God condemn the behavior of his own creations?
"In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27)
One argument I get often is that this is the work of the devil, sin, a choice, etc. But how does this explain the plethora of gay animals out there?
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
"Well", you might say, "animals rape each other. Are you saying we should do that too?"
......-_-..... No.
I have yet to read of an animal that reproduces entirely through rape. Ergo, rape is not the true/correct/viable method of reproduction, ergo these animals are most likely in some way a genetic flop- after all, why were they rejected in the first place?
Back to the issue.
church/CHərCH/
Noun:
A building used for public Christian worship
If a gay Christian couple couple wishes to be married in a public building... erm, what's the counter argument?

-Respectfully coming from a straight female.

Matt~

07-14-2012, 04:53 PM

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To be honest, nothing really suprises me anymore. What's next? A law that says pediphiles & convicted sex offenders can be Elementary School Teachers?

So, liberals want to pass a law that says it's ok for homos to get married in God's house.

What are these f*cking idiots doing besides trying to turn Christianity into their preferable "politically correct" religion?

Hm... Being, as you put it, a homo, I agree with that law. As, I am, as well, a Christian. And if I do decide to get married, I would love to be married in a house of God. :)

Bexxy

07-18-2012, 07:59 PM

I think it should be an option... But not forced onto a church. Personally im not into religion but i think if a gay couple want to marry in a church there should be that option

Lilac Tentacles

07-18-2012, 08:12 PM

Hm... Being, as you put it, a homo, I agree with that law. As, I am, as well, a Christian. And if I do decide to get married, I would love to be married in a house of God. :)

At the same time, you cannot force the churches to acquiesce to something against their beliefs. It's not right. If a gay couple finds a church that will let them get married, then great! Have a lovely ceremony and welcome to the miserable world of marriage, but forcing people who believe that homosexuality will garner them a one-way ticket to hell is wrong in many ways.

It's not fair and it shouldn't be the governments job to begin forcing anything on anyone.

Forget it's even a religious debate right now. The government is over-stepping it's bounds. It's not here to FORCE anyone to do anything. We are a free people and can make our own decisions as adults. I don't need a bunch of people i didn't vote for telling me how to do me.

Matt~

07-18-2012, 08:14 PM

At the same time, you cannot force the churches to acquiesce to something against their beliefs. It's not right. If a gay couple finds a church that will let them get married, then great! Have a lovely ceremony and welcome to the miserable world of marriage, but forcing people who believe that homosexuality will garner them a one-way ticket to hell is wrong in many ways.

It's not fair and it shouldn't be the governments job to begin forcing anything on anyone.

Forget it's even a religious debate right now. The government is over-stepping it's bounds. It's not here to FORCE anyone to do anything. We are a free people and can make our own decisions as adults. I don't need a bunch of people i didn't vote for telling me how to do me.

Hm... One day I would like to get married in a church, but I agree, it isn't the governments place to force any church to hold a ceremony.

Lilac Tentacles

07-18-2012, 08:18 PM

Hm... One day I would like to get married in a church, but I agree, it isn't the governments place to force any church to hold a ceremony.

I know that my dad (when he was a pastor) would have quit his job as minister before he would allow a homosexual marriage. I was raised that it's wrong, but i've loosened up a lot since i've gotten older. It's not my job to determine right from wrong, but i understand the thinking from the religious POV. That church could lose it's right to operate within the bigger denomination, lose all it's members, lose it's funding from the parent church... it could potentially collapse.

I know there are gay-friendly churches out there. I've seen them. I don't know why the couple couldn't have been directed towards one of those. God is God in any church.