The usage of the word "queer"

[Druid]

I feel like this is often a central topic in LGBT+ community in-fighting, and I'm interested in hearing from people on the other side of the debate in more depth: should the word "queer" be widely used, or should it be treated as a slur and put away?

I'm pretty staunchly on the side of using it. The main arguments I hear against are that it was originally a negative term, and that lots of people have trauma from bigots using it against them. While those things are both true, my main counterpoint is that's also the case for pretty much every other word we have. Why doesn't "gay" spark the same controversy? Of course one-on-one any individual has the right to say they're uncomfortable with certain language, but as a Very Online Gay Person I frequently run into people who are offended that "the queer community" is the like, official term, and calling for it to be retired completely from things like academic papers. But yeah I from the bottom of my heart don't understand what makes it more of a problem than anything else - unfortunately as a minority with a history of oppression, literally all language to describe us has been said with hate (and most of it was created for that purpose).

I was talking about this with a few friends the other day and one of them guessed maybe etymology, since common knowledge is that queer's original meaning was "strange or odd" while gay's was "joyful and carefree". We looked into the history of the words a bit more (because tbh it felt a little off that a positive word was used, given the stance of the time) & found the through-line ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), which actually makes a lot more sense. "Gay" first appeared in English around the 12th century, when it did indeed mean the happy thing. But then in the17th century it shifted to be more like "addicted to pleasures and dissipations" & was associated with immorality. Then in the 19th century that became "promiscuous" but in a straight way - for women it meant prostitute, for men it meant "sleeps with a lot of women (often prostitutes)" - and to "gay it" was to have (straight) sex. While these other meanings were in conjunction with the original, that evolution toward "perverse" definitely explains how it came to mean homosexual in the 1920s/30s. Bit of a tangent, but I thought that was super interesting.

Anyway regardless, individual trauma cannot dictate universal language. Homophobia and transphobia are disgusting, and unfortunately for the time being anyway are something every LGBT+ person has had to face. But those attacks are made with every word we have. The most common argument I see, and the one that's kind of treated like a mic drop, is that no one who's ever had "fuckin' queer" screamed at them should have to interact with that word ever again. But like, not everyone's attackers use the same vocabulary? You could swap in any of the other "official" words old/common enough that bigots know them (gay, lesbian, homosexual/just homo, bisexual, transgender), you could swap in the slurs (dyke, fag, tranny... which are a whole other conversation, imo the fundamental difference between them & queer is that they're all slang and therefore not necessary language in the same way), or you could swap in a whole array of words that are harmless in other contexts but harmful here (fairy, butch, pansy, fruit, poof, man/woman depending what stings)... there are people with trauma around every one of those, but there's just no way we can, or should, eliminate all of them. Personally the one I had thrown at me with most venom was "lesbian", and tbh I still don't really use it and just call myself gay (probably partly because of that trauma, though also partly bc I don't love that it's the only orientation split by gender, or that it's a noun? feels really othering). It is of course up to me whether or not I use it to describe myself, but if I were to jump from there to insisting it is not to be used to describe me at all that wouldn't be reasonable or realistic. I am a woman who's exclusively attracted to women - there's a word for that, it's lesbian, whether I love it or not that's a word that's going to come up in my life.

Beyond that, an umbrella term for "not cis/het" is a necessary piece of language. Yeah we have the acronym, but it's borderline impossible to include every possible identity when listing them individually as different letters. The longer it gets the more people get lost trying to figure out what each letter is, the shorter it's kept the more exclusionary it is. LGBT+ is reasonably standard, with the plus sign implying everything else is included too, but it still feels kinda like ranking things. And the vagueness serves a purpose outside of group inclusion - on an individual level, having a word to use for "I don't know what I am - or I don't want you to know specifically what I am - but it's not cis/het" is honestly vital. It can mean gender, orientation, or both, it can be fluid, and it doesn't need to be pinned down further.

I know there are lots of people on the other side of this debate, and I'd love to hear some counterpoints! It's a discussion I've seen mostly online at a point where it's so heightened that no one is actually explaining themselves, and all my irl friends are on the same side of it as me, so it's a topic I'm definitely interested to engage with more. Happy Pride, and remember to keep it respectful and civil!

[Flordibel]

I'm also staunchly on the side of using it 😎 For me, it encompasses my non-heterosexual sexuality and also any gender weirdness I might be feeling. I can't be bothered with trying to label myself agender or bigender or genderneutral or - yeah. So... queer sums that all up pretty nicely.

From what I've seen as an Extremely Online person in fandom circles, for some reason, it's mostly the younger generations who want to argue that it's a slur and to remove it from the lexicon. My circle of friends (30+) almost all identify as "queer." Because it's a great descriptor for all sorts of sexual identity and gender weirdness!

The younger kids seem to recognize it as a slur, which is odd, because... I haven't heard queer used as a slur since like, the early 2000s. Faggot? Dyke? Tranny? Yeah. But queer? Nah. It's not rude enough for people these days, I think.

[kittyray]

I personally find 'queer' to be the best word to describe my experiences as a whole. I don't want to microlable every aspect of how I experience gender/attraction/and so on, especially because it's so fluid. I wrote this earlier and came back and it seems like Flor has had a similar experience, and I think that's true for a lot of my peers. In general I find umbrella terms really useful, and also have it encompassed into a word instead of an ever-changing-acronym-inevitably-exclusive acronym. I like it, it's comfortable.

Also like Flor, I haven't really seen it much as an insult in a very long time. I've definitely seen fag and dyke used a lot, and to me those seem like words where it might be more of a personal decision of whether to reclaim or how, but those aren't really my words to speak on.

[Lemonfox]

Anyway regardless, individual trauma cannot dictate universal language.

This sums up my view nicely. By all means, if an individual asked me not to use it around them because they found the word triggering, I'd do my best to accommodate them specifically. It's if they want me to never use it that I have an issue. I have very bad panic attacks triggered by the sound of a flyswat. If it's a situation where can, I ask people not to use them around me - but I don't expect everyone I may ever come in contact with to throw their flyswats in the trash.

Same with the f-slur and it/its pronouns - seeing someone use them feels like a slap in the face every time because I have such deep-rooted childhood trauma with them. But I have to remind myself that for the person using them to identify themselves, it's a liberating thing, and part of supporting this community I'm a part of is respecting that.

And, on a less serious note... Queer is just so convenient. :P I identify with like, five+ labels, I'm not gonna list em all out when Queer is a comfy word to lean back on (for me personally.) And I've just always loved the word, even before I realized I was it - I read a lot of older novels as a kid and was always fascinated by the antiquated words and phrases. The day I realized I could genuinely call myself queer was the day I began to feel most comfortable with myself, like everything clicked in place.



It is of course up to me whether or not I use it to describe myself, but if I were to jump from there to insisting it is not to be used to describe me at all that wouldn't be reasonable or realistic. I am a woman who's exclusively attracted to women - there's a word for that, it's lesbian, whether I love it or not that's a word that's going to come up in my life.

I am in this exact same boat by the way! In my household many terms were used as slurs. I have a hard time just typing or saying the word lesbian, and though technically, yeah, that's what I am, I always go with wlw/sapphic/gay to describe myself.

[Jackalope]

Admittedly the first time I heard someone using it to self describe it rubbed me the wrong way because it had been a slur for a much larger part of my life. However, I think the practice of reclaiming the words used to hurt you is powerful and important. Ultimately I think if someone asks you not to refer to them as that the respectful thing to do is to call them by their chosen identifiers obviously, but it's a little entitiled to think you have the right to tell someone what they can and cannot call themselves. That said if it's really hurting someone I care about to even hear the term I'd probably drop it around them out of love. Queer is a good nonspecific term that I think is really helpful for people who don't find they fit in a single box.

[kittyray]

Queer is a good nonspecific term that I think is really helpful for people who don't find they fit in a single box.


Yes! The word queer is what helped me to actually identify as queer. Kind of going back to what I said about microlables, none of them ever really seemed to fit right and the ones that did were such small facets of me that I didn't feel the need to label at all or had aspects I didn't fully connect with, so it all felt very fragmented. Hell, even my self-described pronouns on here is very representative of my somewhat ambivalent relationship to gender and I feel like "queer" covers that more than any label ever could.

[Jackalope]

Yes! The word queer is what helped me to actually identify as queer. Kind of going back to what I said about microlables, none of them ever really seemed to fit right and the ones that did were such small facets of me that I didn't feel the need to label at all or had aspects I didn't fully connect with, so it all felt very fragmented. Hell, even my self-described pronouns on here is very representative of my somewhat ambivalent relationship to gender and I feel like "queer" covers that more than any label ever could.

Yes! It also adds a degree of privacy while still identifying yourself as a member of the alphabet mafia. Like, not everyone needs to know the specfics of what I'm into or not into... just... I'm not cishet.

[hissi]

i think everyone should be able to use what they feel best encapsulates their experience, whether that's queer or another term :) personally i don't use it for myself since i just eschew labels in general even though i'm lgbt.

there was a time in college a couple years ago i was a little bothered by events and clubs with "queer" in the name because it wasn't necessarily something i felt like i wanted to call myself by attending (and i had friends who were firmly against the term) but i don't as feel strongly about it now. like we have much bigger fish to fry, picking at each other's identities/other pride discourse does nothing useful lol :P

[birdies]

Queer is the word I use to describe myself, and for me personally it's the best word to describe not being heteronormative but not entirely wanting to put myself into another box. Queer for me is a good catch all - dig down and there's a lot more to me, but queer covers it as a point of identification. I also appreciate reclaiming the slur - the less words people can use against us, the better. I am however very respectful of older generations who may find the word painful.

[TsUNaMy WaVe]

Like it has been said before, I just prefer queer over trying to find out this perfect (probably inexistent) label that describes me.
But English is also not my first language, so I probably can't understand a lot of nuances about this specific debate of using vs not-using this term.

[Druid]

From what I've seen as an Extremely Online person in fandom circles, for some reason, it's mostly the younger generations who want to argue that it's a slur and to remove it from the lexicon. My circle of friends (30+) almost all identify as "queer." Because it's a great descriptor for all sorts of sexual identity and gender weirdness!

The younger kids seem to recognize it as a slur, which is odd, because... I haven't heard queer used as a slur since like, the early 2000s. Faggot? Dyke? Tranny? Yeah. But queer? Nah. It's not rude enough for people these days, I think.
I've found the same thing! And when conversations get heated that "yes it's a slur" argument is paired with "know your history," which like.. I do, including the part where we took it back?


I personally find 'queer' to be the best word to describe my experiences as a whole. I don't want to microlable every aspect of how I experience gender/attraction/and so on, especially because it's so fluid. I wrote this earlier and came back and it seems like Flor has had a similar experience, and I think that's true for a lot of my peers. In general I find umbrella terms really useful, and also have it encompassed into a word instead of an ever-changing-acronym-inevitably-exclusive acronym. I like it, it's comfortable.

Also like Flor, I haven't really seen it much as an insult in a very long time. I've definitely seen fag and dyke used a lot, and to me those seem like words where it might be more of a personal decision of whether to reclaim or how, but those aren't really my words to speak on.

The word queer is what helped me to actually identify as queer. Kind of going back to what I said about microlables, none of them ever really seemed to fit right and the ones that did were such small facets of me that I didn't feel the need to label at all or had aspects I didn't fully connect with, so it all felt very fragmented. Hell, even my self-described pronouns on here is very representative of my somewhat ambivalent relationship to gender and I feel like "queer" covers that more than any label ever could.
God getting into microlabels would be a whole other conversation haha. I'm glad they're there to give a sense of belonging to some people I guess, but it also seems like they're overall a lot more divisive and make people feel separate from the broader community. They can be cool within relevant conversations but idk, the rainbow was always for all of us.

Also I totally agree that it feels like it's on a different level than dyke, fag, etc, which are still pretty crass. I was going to say I feel like those should be said only by people they apply to, but I honestly don't even mind other close friends using them as long as it's with love - like I'm sure more than once I've had conversations with my (straight) former roommate that go:
me: [something gay, like "woah look at this picture of Kristen Stewart"]
her: "dyyyke!" (affectionate)
me: ".....ok fair"
...but yeah that's very much a personal call, and I know everyone has different comfort levels around them. Interestingly in my own experience - which should come with a grain of salt because I've never lived in particularly conservative places - I've almost never heard those really slurry ones used by homophobes as attacks. It's always the technical ones, like homosexual or lesbian, said in a way that makes it feel like it's a different species or a contagious disease. I heard dyke (negative) ONCE and distinctly remember it because of how surprised I was.



I am in this exact same boat by the way! In my household many terms were used as slurs. I have a hard time just typing or saying the word lesbian, and though technically, yeah, that's what I am, I always go with wlw/sapphic/gay to describe myself.
Oh it's cool to see someone else feels the same! Even outside of thinking about the times I've heard it said scathingly, something about it just doesn't feel good? "I'm straight", "I'm gay", "I'm bi", "I'm pan", "I'm queer", but "I'm a lesbian"... idk it just feels like saying we're something ~else~

Also it's cool that "comfortable" is a recurring theme about the word queer! I feel the same - even as someone with simple/easy words for my specific gender and orientation, queer still feels right too & that feels very unifying with all my other queer friends


Admittedly the first time I heard someone using it to self describe it rubbed me the wrong way because it had been a slur for a much larger part of my life. However, I think the practice of reclaiming the words used to hurt you is powerful and important. Ultimately I think if someone asks you not to refer to them as that the respectful thing to do is to call them by their chosen identifiers obviously, but it's a little entitiled to think you have the right to tell someone what they can and cannot call themselves. That said if it's really hurting someone I care about to even hear the term I'd probably drop it around them out of love. Queer is a good nonspecific term that I think is really helpful for people who don't find they fit in a single box.

Oh interesting to hear you actually did experience it as a negative first! Definitely agree that in general the respectful thing to do is use people's individual identities, and in any given conversation to use language that keeps everyone as comfortable as possible, but what starts to get weird is the umbrella term element. Hearing "I'm gay but I do NOT identify with queer, don't talk about the queer community when you mean the gay community, I don't want to be included in that" - which is definitely a sentiment I've seen around - feels a little like hearing "I'm Belgian but I'm NOT European", you know?


i think everyone should be able to use what they feel best encapsulates their experience, whether that's queer or another term :) personally i don't use it for myself since i just eschew labels in general even though i'm lgbt.

there was a time in college a couple years ago i was a little bothered by events and clubs with "queer" in the name because it wasn't necessarily something i felt like i wanted to call myself by attending (and i had friends who were firmly against the term) but i don't as feel strongly about it now. like we have much bigger fish to fry, picking at each other's identities/other pride discourse does nothing useful lol :P
100% agree re: bigger fish to fry! Which is maybe a little ironic as the person who made this thread, but discussion and division are different haha.

I'm interested in what name for an event or club you'd have preferred - would LGBT be better, even if you don't identify with lesbian, gay, bi, or trans? I definitely get the aversion to specific labels, but conversely I feel like that's largely the purpose of "queer" - an umbrella to use and just not get into it.


Queer is the word I use to describe myself, and for me personally it's the best word to describe not being heteronormative but not entirely wanting to put myself into another box. Queer for me is a good catch all - dig down and there's a lot more to me, but queer covers it as a point of identification.
Point of identification is a good way to put what I'm trying to say! Like it's not important what exactly is going on with each of us, what's important is that we can find each other.


Like it has been said before, I just prefer queer over trying to find out this perfect (probably inexistent) label that describes me.
But English is also not my first language, so I probably can't understand a lot of nuances about this specific debate of using vs not-using this term.
Ooh I hadn't even thought of getting into other languages - does your language have a non-specific word like this? If so, is it considered a slur or just a normal word?

[TsUNaMy WaVe]

Ooh I hadn't even thought of getting into other languages - does your language have a non-specific word like this? If so, is it considered a slur or just a normal word?

It actually doesn't, unfortunately. My language is very poor when it comes to queer vocabulary. A lot of the terms are also foreign words to begin with, which might have gone through some minor changes to be more natural in the language. For example: "lesbian" is "lesbit" - "it" being a suffix for feminine-gendered words. The language being gendered makes everything even worse, for non-binary people for example. We don't have a parallel to the singular they, and even if we had, our plural words are gendered as well.
So yeah in general just having conversations about the topic in my language can get pretty hard. As far as slurs go, I think "homo" for example went through the same thing and got taken back. There are still other slurs ofc that haven't, but none of them are parallel to the term "queer".

[Jackalope]

Oh interesting to hear you actually did experience it as a negative first! Definitely agree that in general the respectful thing to do is use people's individual identities, and in any given conversation to use language that keeps everyone as comfortable as possible, to but what starts to get weird is the umbrella term element. Hearing "I'm gay but I do NOT identify with queer, don't talk about the queer community when you mean the gay community, I don't want to be included in that" - which is definitely a sentiment I've seen around - feels a little like hearing "I'm Belgian but I'm NOT European", you know?

Yeah it's tricky when people don't like it as a term for the community. I think that's why I co-opted "Alphabet Mafia". I know it was meant to be an insult originally but I've literally never felt so cool. Here I come to push my agenda in a pinstipe suit with a cigar and my hot wife that will ultimately kill me!

[Wandas]

I used to really dislike the use of the word but now my stance is that I dont really care just if someone asks not to be called queer dont call them queer

[hissi]

100% agree re: bigger fish to fry! Which is maybe a little ironic as the person who made this thread, but discussion and division are different haha.

I'm interested in what name for an event or club you'd have preferred - would LGBT be better, even if you don't identify with lesbian, gay, bi, or trans? I definitely get the aversion to specific labels, but conversely I feel like that's largely the purpose of "queer" - an umbrella to use and just not get into it.i think i would've preferred lgbt or lgbtq instead of "queer" alone. i avoid specific labels but consider myself lgbt/gay in a broad sense, i just have a complicated relationship with gender and sexuality and gay feels better than queer lol :rolleyes:

[Elf]

I constantly hear older people use it negatively. I don't like it; it makes me super uncomfortable and no matter the positive press toward the word from younger people, I can't help but feel this way.

[Druid]

I constantly hear older people use it negatively. I don't like it; it makes me super uncomfortable and no matter the positive press toward the word from younger people, I can't help but feel this way.

That's fair! My main question is, is that untrue of "gay"? If not, what makes them different? (or do they feel different?)

[Zapdos]

I constantly hear older people use it negatively. I don't like it; it makes me super uncomfortable and no matter the positive press toward the word from younger people, I can't help but feel this way.

I also feel this way. Queer was a huge intended insult growing up, along with the F word. It makes me wonder why queer has been reclaimed, and not words like the F word?
I personally don't like identifying as queer but I totally support everyone else who wishes to reclaim the word in any case!

[Jackalope]

I also feel this way. Queer was a huge intended insult growing up, along with the F word. It makes me wonder why queer has been reclaimed, and not words like the F word?
I personally don't like identifying as queer but I totally support everyone else who wishes to reclaim the word in any case!

I think maybe because queer has other meaning outside of lgbtqia+ context that's neutral more or less but the meaning and history behind the f slur is very dark and violent. That said I do sometimes hear people use the f slur to refer to themselves butit's always very jarring for me.

[Druid]

I also feel this way. Queer was a huge intended insult growing up, along with the F word. It makes me wonder why queer has been reclaimed, and not words like the F word?
I personally don't like identifying as queer but I totally support everyone else who wishes to reclaim the word in any case!

I have the same question as above - was that not true of "gay"? And if it was also an insult, what makes it feel different (if it does)?

I feel like which words were the big insults might be partially regional? Where I was as a kid and all through HS, "gay" was THE insult, both for things literally perceived as flamboyant/gay-coded and as a general "xyz sucks" about absolutely anything. I remember at one point having an assignment for a media class to make a PSA, and the big tagline of mine was "homophobia is gay" (cringe) which at the time was really organically read as "homophobia is bad". I didn't hear queer nearly as much, which I acknowledge is probably a factor in my comfort with it, but conversely I can't really imagine not wanting to say or identify as gay.

It's also interesting you say fag hasn't been reclaimed - my impression is that it has, almost all of my male gay friends use it for themselves and their friends/partners all the time (possibly skewed by being in a big, liberal city though). I don't think it's seen the same prominence as queer because it's more of a slang term, so regardless of comfort or reclamation it doesn't really belong in the titles of stuff or in intellectual works anyway. And then dyke, which is basically a female equivalent imo, has actually seen more of the formal reclamation use with things like the Dyke March.

It's cool to hear different perspectives though! I'm definitely interested to hear your thoughts on the words that aren't controversial.

[Zapdos]

I have the same question as above - was that not true of "gay"? And if it was also an insult, what makes it feel different (if it does)?

I feel like which words were the big insults might be partially regional? Where I was as a kid and all through HS, "gay" was THE insult, both for things literally perceived as flamboyant/gay-coded and as a general "xyz sucks" about absolutely anything. I remember at one point having an assignment for a media class to make a PSA, and the big tagline of mine was "homophobia is gay" (cringe) which at the time was really organically read as "homophobia is bad". I didn't hear queer nearly as much, which I acknowledge is probably a factor in my comfort with it, but conversely I can't really imagine not wanting to say or identify as gay.

It's also interesting you say fag hasn't been reclaimed - my impression is that it has, almost all of my male gay friends use it for themselves and their friends/partners all the time (possibly skewed by being in a big, liberal city though). I don't think it's seen the same prominence as queer because it's more of a slang term, so regardless of comfort or reclamation it doesn't really belong in the titles of stuff or in intellectual works anyway. And then dyke, which is basically a female equivalent imo, has actually seen more of the formal reclamation use with things like the Dyke March.

It's cool to hear different perspectives though! I'm definitely interested to hear your thoughts on the words that aren't controversial.

Definitely agree, I think regionality is a big part of it! Gay was definitely used as an insult here, but the most common ones were h*mo and f*ggot. I come from a semi-rural area and I think that due to that, people are more hesitant to reclaim titles other than gay, lesbian, bisexual etc. I've noticed in the city their seems to be more freedom of expression and waaaaay more (almost total) acceptance, I really hope it spreads outwards someday so the LGBT people in my community feel comfortable claiming whatever they like!
Interesting that f*g hasn't been reclaimed here, but dyke has been wholeheartedly so. I think here it is a bit safer to be a gay woman (which still isn't very safe) than a gay man, as gay men occasionally are subject to male on male hate fueled violence :(

[HiroiSekai]

After spending my first year on Twitch, I was exposed to many groups within the LGBTQ+ communities, pretty much all of which have been awesome. I think it is best to tread carefully initially, as some choose to proudly be part of those communities, and others are shy/reserved/etc. and don't particularly want to talk much about it over the content they want to share instead. More people are finding a pronoun they can feel comfortable in for the first time, and that's really cool.

Initially, I will try and avoid using any specific terminology, just sticking to them/they pronouns and otherwise just having everyday conversation. Many people who are proud of their status will generally let you know of their preference through a comment or their about section. To be really specific to this question, I haven't honestly come across any communities where the term was openly used like it was just another word in their vocabulary. That however, is just my experience, and to be honest, I can't say I've actively been an active part of local LGBTQ+ communities or anything like that. I just know a lot of LGBTQ+ people from work, social media, etc. and pretty much all of them are really cool. We all just kind of talk normally anyways, so the thought of using these terms don't come up much, if at all.

[TNK]

I love the word queer.

For me it's just. It's me. I don't have to do micro-identities or specify how I'm identifying.

I'm here, I'm queer, (heck) you.

For me it's also a form of rebellion. People are uncomfy with queer? Good. I'm here to make you uncomfortable and challenge your perceptions.

You don't /need/ to know my identity to respect me.

[jmg]

As a queer person I think we should use whatever words we feel comfortable with. I think there's a power in taking back words that were created to hurt/harm us as other marginalized communities have also done.

[Kibba]

It's a word we all get, yes, it brings some Taboo to the table.

Some of my straight friends keep asking me when they can refer as Queer or Gay or Homo and even what to call a trans Man or a trans Woman and sometimes I get confused because
they keep changing but for me, queer is someone who can express themselves however they want, either fem or masc or both, it's people that don't care about anything and are having a great time.

[jmg]

It's a word we all get, yes, it brings some Taboo to the table.

Some of my straight friends keep asking me when they can refer as Queer or Gay or Homo and even what to call a trans Man or a trans Woman and sometimes I get confused because
they keep changing but for me, queer is someone who can express themselves however they want, either fem or masc or both, it's people that don't care about anything and are having a great time.

Personally I don't think straight people should use queer or homo. They should stick to gay, lesbian, trans, etc. If a straight person referred to me as a queer or homo I would have an immediate problem with that. Straight people created the slurs but they don't get to use them because it goes from the queer community taking back those words back to being slurs.

[fireheart]

im not an enormous fan of being called queer but i understand its vv important to some ppls identitys!
i dont think it should be put away, but i do think the community could do with being more sensitive towards ppl who dont like to be called it :(
and i do get a little irrationaly upset when cishet ppl say it, even when not in a bad context... gives me the ick heh