What are your opinions on Israel x Palestine?

[Unlucky]

Hello everyone.

I know, it's quite a sensitive topic.

As you may know, this week the issue has come to light again as bombings happened in the region.

I would love to read different opinions on this matter, but unfortunately, in most places out there in the internet people just fight like crazy about this subject. Since the forum has rules and all, I was thinking things could be a bit more respectful in here.

Many claim that it can't even be called a "conflict", as Israel is immensevily overpowered according to those; others say one is only their right to defend themselves from terrorists who happen to come from Palestine. Often, people also bring out the entire thing UN did years back is wrong, and etc, etc, etc.

So, what are your opinions on Israel x Palestine?

[Dot]

My opinion is that I don't know enough to really form a valid opinion. Though I do think one should be able to criticize a government without being called antisemitic, but then again a lot of opinions I have seen that criticize Israel veer into the antisemitic category. The reaction of Netanyahu does seem to be the one of somebody who is trying to distract and wanting to stay in power.

[Erik.]

Both are just two sides to the same fucked up coin in my opinion. Israel acts like an Apartheid state (different driving lanes, different laws, different health care, no vaccines for Palestinians, enclosing Gaza and banning it from trading, keeping Gaza as a de facto prison where no one can get out and enter Israel) and discriminates Arabs and Palestinians. It steals land, it has never respected the original 1947 borders, it is JUST like the Chinese government who are moving Han Chinese to Xin Jiang to replace the Uygurs and ethnically change the demographic of the province (and slowly get the Uyghurs to go extinct). They keep building houses for "settlers" just to make it impossible to ever return to the old borders, and to keep Palestinians from going back to their homes. Orthodox Jews/Zionists are getting out of hand, bullying Palestinians/Muslims out of their houses, stealing ground and beating up innocent people like that motorist a few days ago. Palestinians are just as worse, supporting Hamas and using violence too. Hamas has already send more 100s of rockets to Israel. Israel on the other hand has sent a lot of rockets as well, killing way more (from the top of my head 175 against 10). The latest thing Israel did was bomb a media/journalist office building, destroying it completely, only warning the journalists an hour before. Luckily no one got killed, but why would Israel target journalists? I can only think of one reason and that is to control the media. Make sure nothing that's bad for Israel's reputation gets out. As if their reputation hasn't been smeared by themselves for years.

I'm afraid it will never end. The whole problem started when the US just gave "a country without people to a people without a country". As if Palestine was empty back then. How can Israeli's ever be seen as anything else than invaders to those surrounding them, and how can Palestinians ever get their homes and land back? They will never live together peacefully because the basis on which Israel as a country stands, and its origin, are not legitimate. Another problem is that Israel's government has been leaning more and more to the extreme right. Netanyahu is adding oil to the fire, not solving the problem.

Some links to things I have mentioned:

[Only registered and activated users can see links] Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1392565162532646912%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=[Only registered and activated users can see links] Fmid-east%2Fisraeli-mobs-lynching-of-arab-aired-live-on-tv & [Only registered and activated users can see links] Israeli almost lynch a motorist.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] - International media building destroyed by Israel.


[Only registered and activated users can see links] - Irish MP talks about Israel as an Apartheid state.


[Only registered and activated users can see links] - On how Israeli settlers are ruining Israel.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] - On how Hamas is ruining Gaza.

[Hollow]

It's difficult to talk about I think. While I am not Palestinian I do have some similar experiences when I was in Lebanon, and can somewhat relate to what they are going through (on a small scale). I've had one of my family members caught by the IDF when they were occupying the South of Lebanon (my family are Lebanese) and he was in prison for nearly 5 years for resisting them - I was a child when this happened but it's one of those things that sticks with the family.

The entire thing is heart breaking to see, I almost feel like if I try to call out the horrors of what the Palestinians are going through then I might get called an antisemite.

I don't know if this conflict will ever end to be honest, it's been ongoing for decades.

[Cookie Tray]

It's pretty clear to me that it's ethnic cleansing aka genocide that's been going on for decades, and Israel has been becoming more and more vicious. The history of the issues with the region goes back to WWII* since the beginning of "Israel" as a country, which was theft of Palestinian land. It's not a "conflict" as that erases the incredible violence, and it's entirely one-sided.

The clearest way to tell who's clearly in the wrong? The US, a genocidal imperialist power, has been funding and sending weapons to Israel for decades, not to Palestine. Look to where the evils of the world are placing their money and weapons to see the truth behind any violence.

*Edit: It actually traces back to WWI, after England captured the region post-war from the Ottoman Empire. Zionism was spread like wildfire post-WWII, and that is when the illegal occupation, land grabbing, and ethnic cleansing began. I remember learning this in middle school (in the US) as we were taught about the Holocaust; we read "Night" by Elie Wiesel, a survivor of one genocide, who supported the genocide of another group. It made no sense.

If you read at all, I would look into Edward Said's "Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims" (excerpt PDF available here ([Only registered and activated users can see links])) or Noam Chomsky's words ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) on the "conflict."

"Israel" is not a legitimate nation; it is the name that settlers and occupiers give to the parts of Palestine they have stolen and executed civilians for.

[Aero]

My opinion on this matter is likely uneducated in many ways, but the formal existence of Israel is definitely a case where "history repeats itself". Cookie Tray and Erik. already touched on it, but the modern territorial disputes of the Middle East have been long running and was likely exacerbated by surprise! England, France, and Russia during and after WWI. You can read more about the Sykes-Picot agreement ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) where the Western world basically just divvied up land for themselves, not really considering the very real people with very real cultures living inside that land. This has obviously been repeated around the world by the same countries + other European countries + the US, from Asia to Africa to North America.

Meme below:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Geopolitically, I understand why the US continues to ally itself with Israel, although geopolitics is definitely not the only reason in the US for this continued partnership. I also think the governments of both Israel and Palestine are strongly at fault (like, the Hamas are basically a militant organization and they certainly don't seem better than the Israeli government) and the people, mostly Palestinians at this point, are unfortunately just collateral damage.

My strongest opinion on this matter is that Jerusalem should be an "international city ([Only registered and activated users can see links](Jerusalem))", but I don't think this is an unpopular opinion.

[Spore]

We can answer with a question: what we are seeing is a third intifada?
We are experiencing a new war in Gaza that will not end immediately, that is for sure. But are we seeing a third intifada?

For years, I believe that the third intifada has been in progress. It has been operating since at least 2016 or 2017, especially in Jerusalem.
In July 2017, Palestinian youth rebelled in Jerusalem against the installation of security gates on the Esplanade. Now we are in a similar situation: the defense of the public space of the Old City.

Intifada means revolt in Arabic. Is it a revolt? Yes, there are disturbances. It is much less structured than the second intifada and there is less militarization. It is more a mobilization of civil society, of youth, with the help of social networks and with very concrete and pragmatic demands.

I am not the only one who thinks that international pressure does not work. It only has an impact on the Israeli government, its right-wing governments and Israeli public opinion. Proof of this is what happened on Monday.
After pressure from the UN, from Europe, but mainly from the United States, which resumed a classic position, the same as that of the Donald Trump administration, the Israeli government showed signs that it wanted a slowdown.
Among them was the Supreme Court who had to decide on the expulsion of Palestinian families from Sheikh Jarrah, the ban on going to the Esplanade of the Mosques for Israeli Jews, etc.
We know that Qatar has significant power and everyone needs it to serve as an intermediary between Hamas and the Israeli government when there is a ceasefire.
The current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a return to what is repressed on the world diplomatic agenda: the situation has been ignored by the world.
The Trump era blurred the eyes of observers, who ended up believing that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could end without being resolved.
Until the conflict is resolved, it will continue to resurface periodically, in different and unexpected ways.

The solution of two national states (one Israeli and one Palestinian) died a long time ago, especially with the 650,000 Israeli settlers based in the West Bank.
But above all, it died in the spirit of young Palestinians. It is not on their agenda nor do they think about it.
They fight for their rights, for their public spaces, their living conditions and a form of equality with their Israeli neighbors. And the same goes for the Arabs who live in Israel.
On the Israeli side, it appears that, due to the emergence of the right and the extreme right, a large part of the political body and ordinary people advocate the complete annexation of much of the West Bank.
In a way, there is already a binational state. In that whole territory there is a single army in action, a currency: the shekel, and a single border: the Israeli one.
The Israeli-Palestinian binational state already exists, but it is a state where individuals who do not have the same rights coexist.

The solution of the two states is becoming more and more distant and almost nobody talks about it anymore.

[Synth Salazzle]

To me, both sides have a history of doing fucked up things to each other.
To me this has been happening for quite a long time now, longer than any of us on this forum has been alive.

I fully believe; as someone who doesn't live in that part of the world. That the situation is far too complex to see it from a black and white perspective. Rather I just mourn the loss of innocent life on both sides of the coin. There's far too much I don't understand to offer more than sympathy toward the people who don't deserve to lose their lives or families from acts of war and terror.

[Baelia]

i first learned of it from a video called "Muffins", one of the first videos i ever watched on youtube when i was like 11. israeli-palestinian conflict muffin.

[Why So Serious?]

In my view, the beginning of a third war, a very beginning.

[Unlucky]

In my view, the beginning of a third war, a very beginning.

You mean a third world war? It has been going on for so long at this point. I wonder if it will ever escalate to that point. In my opinion, if were going to be a third world war, it would have already happened. But other countries don't seem to be insterested in getting involved.

[pppp3]

Anyone hammering on about "both sides" and "complex situation" is siding with the oppressor. Neutrality is siding with the oppressor. A violent oppression will always force violent resistance into existence. Violent resistance is UGLY. What happened on the 7th of Oct should not have happened... but anyone directing their anger at the people of Palestine (I would go as far as to even say members of HAMAS, who mind you are young men who were born into what is basically a concentration camp, have had their entire lives controlled by Israel, many of whom will have had friends and family members murdered by the occupation, and because of these things have become radicalized to a senseless degree) are misguided. Peoples anger should be directed at the state of Israel for creating circumstances that forced these men into becoming such brutal militants. Also anyone who "isn't knowledgeable enough to voice an opinion" needs to educate themselves. It's not that hard to form a relatively informed opinion when there are countless hours of informational videos, podcasts, books, news articles on the subject. Staying willfully ignorant in times like this is inexcusable.


edit - ok weird i'm seeing this is a thread from 2021 so i'm not sure how it was on the front page of the debate zone sub... weird.
my point still stands

[Cookie Tray]

Thank you for bumping this back up, though. I had forgotten that I responded here back in 2021, and since then I've learned even more still on the history of Palestine and Zionism.

I knew that Zionism is completely inseparable from its imperialist ideology, as is stated in Edward Said's excerpt I linked above, but I have learned a bit more in depth as to how and why it is. In a nutshell, Zionism is the belief that the State of Israel should exist, and its existence would be majority Jewish (ethnically) and controlled exclusively by Jewish people. We would call this an ethnostate.

It "just so happens" that this State has occupied Palestine, but if it was not Palestine, it would be another land that they would be occupying and committing the same war crimes on.


And the last few months have made this quote from Said even more true:

To write critically about Zionism in Palestine has therefore never meant, and does not
mean now, being anti Semitic;; conversely, the struggle for Palestinian rights and self
determination does not mean support for the Saudi royal family, nor for the antiquated
and oppressive state structures of most of the Arab nations.
One must admit, however, that all liberals and even most "radicals" have been unable to
overcome the Zionist habit of equating anti Zionism with anti Semitism. Any well
meaning person can thus oppose South African or American racism and at the same
time tacitly support Zionist racial discrimination against non Jews in Palestine.


I have to agree wholeheartedly with pppp3 here. It is a massive show of privilege to not know enough to understand, but sources are provided everywhere you look. You are doing a disservice to yourself and disrespecting all the Palestinian victims of the last century by choosing not to educate yourself and speak up for the victims of genocide when their voices have been so violently silenced.

[Ferengi]

I have a lot of complicated feelings about this. First of all, I don't believe the country of Israel should exist, nor any religious states in general. The way that this went about is completely mind-boggling to me.

I am a huge proponent of Land Back, and the Land Back movement. I live in a country (Canada) where colonialism has taken everything away from indigenous peoples, and I would do anything to have it rectified. It is very clear in Canada who the colonizers are. In Israel/Palestine, both groups believe that they are indigenous to the land. Your culture's past/present struggles are so ingrained into who you are that you would do anything to achieve land back, especially when you and your family are in an unsafe situation. This is a rock and a hard place scenario. I don't see how it can end.

Maybe both groups are indigenous to the land. At different points in history, both have been displaced from their homes and suffered loss and bloodshed. I'm not an expert about the situation; I'm just posting how I feel, as I haven't been able to talk to anyone in person.

[birdies]

Okay.

I don't usually speak about this stuff because as a left wing liberal many of my friends have deeply opposing views and also because, frankly, I've dealt with a lot of antisemitism as a result of this ongoing conflict, whether intended or not.

But I guess I'll say something here because I'm seeing dangerous language thrown around. Content warning for some extremely dark stuff.

First, let me say clearly that I don't think a single Jewish or Palestinian child, or innocent civilian of any kind should die in the name of this conflict. I don't think Israel going to war in Gaza will solve any problems, or make anything better. Israel states it should be a light among the nations and shouldn't act like this. In my opinion Israel should ceasefire and demand that the hostages are released and the leaders of the terrorists are handed over - Hamas won't do that, obviously, but currently Israel are doing exactly what Hamas want them to do: they want them to launch a war, they want them to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible because they know that's the best way to inflame tensions in the region which may cause other ME states to act. Hamas want to draw others into the war and, ultimately, Hamas want to wipe out Israel and all Jews.

The genocidal aim of Hamas is not in doubt. It's stated in their charter that they want every Jew dead. This is not a response to Palestinian occupation, but we'll get to that.

I'm also going to state my personal biases here. I have Jewish and Muslim heritage. I have Israeli and Iranian heritage. My uncle by marriage was murdered by Iran for being apostate. My cousins live in a very Muslim area of Israel just outside Tel Aviv. Two of my family members were at the Nova festival where hundreds were massacred. I have family friends in the Kibbutzim where children were mutilated, bound together and burned alive. My family in Israel have protested against the government and the treatment of Palestine, as many Israelis have. I've got some strong feelings on this one.

So, on Hamas.

Hamas are run by Iran. They receive around 100 million dollars a year in funding directly from Iran. Their fighters are trained by Iran, and also by and in some other ME states. Their weapons have long been supplied by Iran. Many of their leaders live in luxury in Qatar.

Beyond the millions of dollars supplied directly to Iran for the sole purpose of arming them, Palestine itself receives around a billion dollars a year in aid - most of it from the US. They have received around 40 billion dollars in aid in the last 30 years. For a country about the size of Delaware with a population of 5 million, this aid is actually very significant and could be used to help the territory thrive, but vast amounts of it are effectively stolen by Hamas (and the Palestinian Authority, and Fatah before them, and the PLO - ruling Palestine has long been a method of enrichment). Rather than improve the infrastructure of Gaza, building better hospitals and universities, improving the supply, water and power networks they spend the money on their vast network of tunnels under Gaza, actively destabilising its infrastructure.

What you hear about Hamas using civilians as human shields is entirely true. They absolutely do base their military strata in high civilian areas, under hospitals and schools. They put rocket launchers on top of schools. Hamas know that when Israel retaliate, children will die, and they then publicise this.

Hamas also knew that Israel would retaliate for their recent horrific attack in a stronger way than they ever have before. This attack has been planned for many months - if Palestinian citizens were actually their concern they could have stockpiled food, water, fuel and medical supplies to keep their people going through a siege. They did not. The stockpiled enough for their fighters, and for the hostages they want to use as political collateral. They leave their people to die.

So these aren't freedom fighters, what they are fighting for isn't the freedom of Palestine, it's the destruction of Israel. This is Iran's aim, not Palestine's.

Why now? Well, Israel was in a peace process with Saudi Arabia that was going to 'normalise relations' between them - essentially, Saudi accepting Israel as a country and starting to work on trade deals with them. This situation would have been bad for Iran.

Since the October 7th attack, this deal is off the table and the peace process with Saudi has significantly regressed - it will take a very long time to repair.

So. On to 'Israel as the oppressor'.

Saying this isn't complex is saying you have zero understanding of the history or current situation in the middle east.

First, some numbers to put things into perspective.

The population of Israel is 9 million.

That's roughly the population of Tokyo, or London.

And the population aren't all Jews. Around two million of that 9 million are arabs, many of them Muslim. Many of them Palestinian. I'm also going to note that there's no structural persecution of Arabs, Muslims or Palestinians within Israel itself (is there persecution from right wing shits on an individual level, yes). There are arabs and muslims in senior roles in the supreme court, and in government. There are arabs, both muslims and christians fighting in the IDF right now. About 10 percent of Bedouin Muslims in Israel volunteer to serve in the IDF - they are not required by law to do so, unlike Jewish youth, this is entirely their choice. Israel is not a country which is oppressive to Arabs or Muslims.

Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey, or Wales.

Israel is surrounded by countries many hundreds of times its size, the majority of which do not recognise it as a state and many of which have stated they want to or actively tried to 'wipe it off the map'.

Around 1 million of the 7 million Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews - this means they are Jews who have always lived in the Middle East, who are refugees in Israel, fleeing persecution in the countries they had been living in.

This map shows the numbers of Jews who used to have homes in the Middle East and had to flee to Israel - Israel is the tiny tiny dark blue bit in between all the other large countries who hate it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

So, in the current situation with no consideration of history of of any of the lands beyond its borders, is Israel more powerful than Palestine and is Israel treating Palestine badly? Absolutely, 100 percent.

But we can't consider this situation in a vacuum. History and the land beyond its borders do matter.

Lets look at the history.

Indigenous claim to the land:
Both Palestinians and Jews have an indigenous claim to the land. Both have been there as long as we've had recorded history. I would hope this isn't in doubt by anyone. Beyond this - Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews are essentially the same people, and Ashkenazi Jews (who predominantly fled Europe after the Holocaust) have a genome that is near identical to the Palestinian genome. They're the same people. They originate from the same place. Both groups have the right to live there.

Continuous occupation of the land:
Both Jews and Palestinians have always lived in the land that is currently Israel and Palestine. Always, but in greater or lesser numbers.

That's largely due to the fact that the territory has been occupied so many times. It was occupied by Macedonia (hi Amexander the great) and it was occupied to become a vassal of Rome. While occupied by Rome, the Romans beat back Jewish revolts by destroying Jerusalem and razing their second temple.

Then it was occupied and warred over repeatedly by different Muslim ruling dynasties - this is the period when the Dome of the Rock, the Al-Aqsa Mosque and other religiously important structures were built. This is the focus of much of the religious conflict over Jerusalem today - the Al-Aqsa Mosque is built over the Second Temple, which Jews believe will also be the site of the Third Temple when the Messiah comes. Whatever you personally feel about religion, this one site is incredibly important to both faiths.

Anyway, then the Crusaders came and took over, somewhere along the lines the Mongols occupied it, then Egypt, and then very significantly it was occupied by the Ottoman Empire for some 500 years, during which time it was known as 'Ottoman Syria'.

So, the land has neither ben 'owned' by the Israelis or the Palestinians for over a millenia. Something that is of note is that every single one of the regimes above presided over huge massacres of Jews. The Jewish population was gradually forced to flee the land (to eventually be murdered elsewhere) but there has always been a Jewish community in that land. Under the Ottomans to greater and lesser extents the Jews were welcomed back, then treated with more hostility, then welcomed back, etc.

Other than Israel, Jews have never had any other homeland, and have been massacred and expelled from pretty much every other country they have lived in, other than the US.

So, cut to WW1 and England takes control of Palestine from the Ottomans. England are now the occupiers.

There is already talk of the need for a Jewish homeland. Why? Well, for the Jews, they were weary and desperate for a Jewish State where they could be free of persecution - and this was before WW2. But for the League of Nations, it was because no where else would welcome the Jews. They were already being attacked in much of Europe. America accepted Jews but wouldn't give them territory.

Homelands for the Jews were considered in America and inThessaloniki in Greece but ultimately the English owned Palestine, there was a significant Jewish population there already and it had many holy sites to the Jews.

Then we had WW2.

I'm sure people know the statistics but just in case.

The world Jewish population before WW2 was around 15 million.
The world Jewish population after WW2 was around 9 million.
6 million Jews were murdered.
2 out of every 3 Jews in Europe were murdered.

Please take a minute to imagine 2 our of every three people you know having been murdered in the most hideous ways, while you yourself were treated as less than human. The term genocide was, quite literally, invented to describe this attempt to wipe out an entire race.

Then please understand why describing Jews as 'white settler colonialists' in the land they originated from, after having gone back there following 2 out of 3 of them being murdered specifically for not being white is antisemitic.

Anyway, WW2 happened and pushed the League of Nations and the UK to take action on this idea of a Jewish homeland. England had tried a fun thing called Partition in India in 1947 which went really really well (read up on the India Pakistan situation if you're not sure what happened there) and decided to do it again in the land that became Israel and Palestine.

At that time, there was significant persecution from the Palestinian majority against the Jewish minority in the country - many attacks, etc. So it was decided that if they couldn't live together they land would have to be split.

The Partition plan, with the land split between the Jews and Palestinians, was also complex. Palestinians were at that time kind of considered Jordanians - the land that became Palestine was going to be Transjordan initially, and Israel was going to be offered one third of the land for its own state. But that was before WW2. After WW2 there was both a bigger need for a Jewish homeland and, arguably, Britian had grown tired of dealing with the situation.

The land was divided up so that Israel was given just over 50 percent of the territory for its homeland. Part of the reasoning behind this was that the Palestinians did also live in Jordan and other parts of the ME, while the Jews had nowhere, but obviously if they weren't going to accept giving up 1/3rd of the land, giving up 50% of it was not going to happen.

Importantly: under partition both Jews and Palestinians were displaced from their long time homes and forced to move to the part of the country allocated to them. Yes, it took place because the Jews were arriving in larger numbers and needed a land, but both groups of current inhabitants were uprooted.

So did Israel come and kick out the Palestinians and take their land? No, they were given it under an agreement with the League of Nations, which Arab leaders actively refused to participate in.

Did Palestinians lose some of their lands? Yes, and so did Jews who already lived there. But this wasn't a violent act by the Jews - literally, this was a tiny group of a few hundred thousand who were fresh off the boat from being murdered in unimaginable numbers. This wasn't a warlike people coming in to take control.

But much like Partition elsewhere, Partition here caused an endless conflict and bloodshed that hasn't stopped.

So, did Israel immediately attack the Palestinians, occupy them and begin '75 years of oppression'?

Hmm.

One day after the founding of Israel, a bus full of Jewish passengers was attacked by Palestinians. Jewish communities around Jerusalem were immediately blockaded by Palestine and cut off from the rest of Israel. Military skirmishes between both groups were constant. Israel, seeking to reach its blockaded communities, attacked a village called Deir Yassin - around 100 people were murdered in this attack. Days later Palestinians attacked a Jewish hospital convoy and killed 80.

It was, lets be clear, a shitty situation for both sides. The jews desperately needed a safe home and hadn't been given one. The Palestinians had expected autonomy over the whole territory and instead lost half of it, including many of their homes.

But did Israel attack and occupy Palestine in 1948?

No, Palestine was occupied by Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, who used Palestine as a base to attack Israel, beginning the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948. In this war, all those countries attacked Israel via Palestine in an attempt to 'force the Jews into the sea' and utterly destroy the new Jewish state and the survivors of European atrocities who lived there.

In the fight back against all these Arab states, Israel won control of more land - this was not an attempt to steal land, this was necessary as they were being attacked from it. The land was used largely to provide a buffer zone between Israel and hostile territory. Some 600 - 700,000 Palestinians were displaced and you may have seen this referred to in social media hot takes as the 'Nakba' or 'Catastrophe'. It is also referred to as the Israeli war of independence. While clearly there was justified grievance on both sides after partition, this land wasn't stolen, it was claimed as a result of a direct attack on Israel.

In 1967 came the Six Day War - Egypt, Syria and Jordan again used the Palestinian land that they occupied to launch a war against Israel. They were defeated, and this time Israel forced them out of Palestinian territory and occupied it themselves - again, as a defensive buffer against attack.

So, you will have seen on social media that Palestine has been occupied for '75 years'. It was occupied by other ME countries from 1948 - 1967, and Israel pulled out of occupation in Gaza in 2005. The reasons Israel occupied it to begin with were defensive, not aggressive.

On October 6th, 1973 (the date is relevant) Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur war on Israel, again using Palestine in its attacks. Israel lost some territory in this war, and ultimately a peace treaty was signed where Egypt agreed to recognise Israel's right to exist, and diplomatic relations between the two countries began.

There have been a total of fifteen wars launched against Israel since its foundation.

Fifteen wars, launched against a tiny country squished in between many vast countries who don't believe it has a right to exist.


So, when we talk about who the oppressor is here, we have to look at the whole Russian Doll. Israel may have powerful backers - without America's backing, for example, there would no longer be any Israel - but Israel is in turn attacked and oppressed by its neighbours, and it has become a defensive country with sharp teeth as that is the only way it has survived until now.

I have seen people attempt to justify the Hamas massacre by saying 'oppressed people eventually fight back' - consider then what a people driven out of every country they have ever attempted to build a home in, subject to attacks and massacres for centuries, who saw two out of three of their people murdered in the event for which the word genocide was invented, who were treated as less than human, who were sent to a place that didn't want them and immediately attacked for being there, who have seen fifteen wars launched against their tiny nation state may be willing to do to keep its small population safe?

I also want to address the use of the term genocide to describe Israel's actions in Gaza.

In short, it's not genocide. For one thing, the population in Gaza in 1965 was 265k and it is now 2.1mil - so if there's been an ongoing genocide it's been an incredibly unsuccessful one. The Palestinian population is growing far faster than the world jewish population. But what about the current horrific attacks on Gaza, isn't that genocide? No, it's not genocide, it is not an attempt to wipe out a specific race or group of people. Whatever you think about Israel's actions, and I certainly disagee with them, they are not trying to kill all Palestinians and they never have.

Call it unacceptable. Call it inhumane treatment. Call it collective punisment. But using the term genocide cheapens it and, in the manner that it is often used to attack Israel by claiming they're doing as was done to them in the holocaust it is, I'm afraid, antisemitic.

Similarly, describing Gaza as a concentration camp is inaccurate and an offensive way of using the history of genocide against the jews against them in a whole new way. There are many ways to describe Israel's oppression of Palestine - and yes, we've established they do and have oppressed Palestine, even with the context above - without resorting to language which cheapens the holocaust.

Addressing the blockade on Palestine? Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza in 2005. In 2007 Hamas were voted into power, and then seized full power by murdering the leaders of the opposing Fatah party and dragging their bodies through the streets. Both Israel and Egypt blockaded Gaza in 2007 as a response to Hamas' aggression, attacks, and repeated smuggling of weapons. Prior to 2007 tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens had visas to travel into Israel for work. It was much easier to leave Palestine both to go into Israel or to travel elsewhere (still not easy, but much easier) and far more aid got through. The worsening situation for Gaza since 2007 is in significant part due to Hamas.

And addressing the West Bank? The settlements in that area are criminal and should be taken down, Netanyahu is scum. In providing context to what is happening in Israel I by no means absolve it of its crimes.

So - Free Palestine?

Yes, Palestine should be free. But I hope the above goes some way to explain why it's really really difficult to 'free' territory whose people have been used by so many other countries, and who are currently being used by Hamas, to launch attacks on Israel.

The desperately needed peace process can't be one sided. Israel can't be peaceful by itself, nor should higher expectations be placed on Israel than are every other country in the region.

To free Palestine, Israel must also be allowed to be free - free from the jew hate, free from the threat of attack. If every country in the Middle East (I'm looking at you in particular, Iran) agreed on Israel's right to exist, as long as it existed as an equal state to an autonomous and free Palestine I truly think agreement could be reached. While Israel lives under threat, while I still fully believe that it should and MUST give back Palestinian land and allow aid and travel etc etc to the Palestinian people, I understand how very hard it is to make those concessions at the risk of its own people.


I've talked forever, I really hope it's helped some people who may not know the context here. But I want to address one more thing, which is the vast rise in antisemitism in the West. It is not just disappointing but heartbreaking to me that it's currently impossible for a Jewish person to post sharing their personal pain without threats and insults. It's heartbreaking to me that people are claiming the deaths of Jews don't matter, or are justified, or are being lied about. People pull down the posters of the missing. Peopke interrupt gatherings to mourn the dead. People attack Jewish students on college campuses. Jewish children in London are warned not to be visibly Jewish. Just today an airport was invaded by a mob who wanted to attack innocent Israelis who were arriving on a plane from Tel Aviv.

I've lived a privileged life thinking I would never have to see the hate and persecution my grandparents did. Sure, I've seen jewish friends on twitter be sent graphic holocaust pictures, or pictures of gas ovens in responses to posts they made about their faith. I've seen Temples attacked. I've seen hassidic jews spat at in the streets - all of that before all this happened - but I didn't expect what's happening now and it frightens me. Where it could lead frightens me.

The reason many Jews feel Israel is a necessary place, is so that Jews - this tiny, tiny global minority of 15 million, compared to 2 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims - have one small scrap of land where we don't have to face antisemitism - a deep, deep generational trauma that doesn't just stretch back to the holocaust, but for our entire existence. I'm only really starting to understand that now.

Words matter. Words like the ones I've used above matter, because they cause violence. Using zionist as a slur, or saying 'I'm not antisemitic, I'm anizionist' matters. Zionist doesn't refer to the small group of extremists who believe the whole of the land of Israel should belong to the jews - those people exist, sure, but they're not the representative group. At its fundamental level, zionism means 'a belief that the Jews should have a homeland in Israel'.

I'll be honest, the actual location of the homeland doesn't matter much to me personally. If we'd been given Thessaloniki there would probably have been far fewer of these horrendous, horrendous problems. But statistics tend to show about 9 out of 10 Jews believe that we should have a homeland in Israel - so when you say you're not antisemitic, you're antizionist, you mean you just have a problem with 9 out of 10 Jews.

I see a lot of non-Jews saying what is and isn't antisemitic, and I think - I would never tell a person of colour that what they feel is racist actually isn't. I would never tell a trans person what they feel is transphobic actually isn't. As a queer person, I wouldn't expect to be challenged over what I feel is homophobic. So I hope that people can understand that things that they don't feel are said with any antisemitic intent can feel intensely antisemitic on the receiving end and try to understand why.

By all means call for free Palestine, I agree with you. Please call for an Israeli ceasefire and call Israel out on its crimes and abuses. But do try to understand why the instinct for harsh defence is there, in the same way that you understand it for the Palestinians. I would ask that with every call for a ceasefire you equally and at the same time call for Hamas to give up the hostages and surrender its leaders. Because Hamas has the capacity to do one good thing for the people of Palestine and do its part toward securing a ceasefire too. Because peace can't be one sided. Because everyone should get to be safe, and free.

[DrixlRey]

You all seem very informed. Can someone explain to me why Israel sanctioned and controlled every export to them like medical supplies, food, oil, and also allowing homes to be built in the west bank? I thought even US said this was illegal. I'm just wondering, isn't this what LEAD to Palestine rebeling? Is there nothing to blame to Israel?

[birdies]

You all seem very informed. Can someone explain to me why Israel sanctioned and controlled every export to them like medical supplies, food, oil, and also allowing homes to be built in the west bank? I thought even US said this was illegal. I'm just wondering, isn't this what LEAD to Palestine rebeling? Is there nothing to blame to Israel?

I think it's fairly clear there's plenty to blame Israel for, including exercising a far too tight grip on Palestine's trade and economy.

The main issue with trade with Palestine is that every import or export has to pass through a checkpoint. Most of these checkpoints are via the border with Israel. The reason every import and export is checked is for smuggled weaponry, but this isn't necessarily done quickly and it does slow down what Palestine can bring in and mean that the majority of their trade is done with Israel because that's simply the easiest way for them. This has a significant negative economic effect on Palestine.

They do also have a trade route through Egpyt. Egypt also have a blockade on Gaza and check all imports and exports, and Egypt have previously closed and even bombed this route when they found weapons being smuggled through, as well as flooded tunnels under the crossing.

Fuel is generally closely monitored, it's fully restricted currently because they're trying to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israel (alongside the air strikes Israel are carrying out, hundreds of rockets are fired into Israel daily - Israel has better air protections but they can't stop them all - this is also the reason that Israeli homes are built with bomb shelters). Hamas is known to steal fuel from aid organisations, this has been reported directly by the United Nations Relief Agency, but it's well known. Hamas do still have fuel supplies, because they're still sending rockets. Palestinian citizens do not have fuel and are in an electricity crisis which is also affecting places like hospitals.

Water - the land of Israel and Palestine are water poor in general. There isn't enough water for the whole region, and a lot of the water comes from ground supplies. There are strict water quotas for both Israel and Palestine due to this, however Israel takes the lions share of the water, and much of the water in Gaza is desalinated water, for which they need desalination plants (a lot of homes have the capacity to desalinate water for drinking, but to supply the country plants are needed) which run on fuel, which goes back to the fuel issue above. You may have seen talk of Hamas digging up water pipes to use to make rockets and Israel filling in wells (not the traditional well we might think of, industrial wells) with cement. Both these things are true, both are also a little more complicated - Hamas probably used water pipes that were no longer in use, and the wells were filled in due to quota and supply issues. Israel absolutely should not have the control over Palestine's water that it does, Palestine should have water autonomy but water autonomy in that region requires both parties being able to trust each other and work together because there isn't unlimited water and quotas are necessary.

The issue on whether the control Israel exercised previously was illegal has gone back in forth in courts for a long time. It may or may not be illegal but it certainly isn't right, no matter their reasons for it.

The current situation where aid was cut off fully for days and fuel, food etc was cut off? Apparently it's not breaking international law, I don't really know how, but it doesn't overly matter: it's appalling, it punishes the wrong people and it needs to stop. Hamas have supplies for themselves anyway, they're not going to be stopped by cutting them off.

Were the ongoing restrictions what lead to Palestine 'rebelling'? The October 7th massacre was not Palestine 'rebelling' and Hamas are not freedom fighters, nor do Hamas care about Palestinian freedom: they're a puppet of Iran. So no. Was it a factor that may have lead many young Palestinian men to hate Israel, hate Jews and be willing to be used by Hamas as tools to carry out a massacre? Yeah, almost definitely. But there's absolutely nothing that justifies or excuses in any way the nature of the acts carried out on October 7th. That was pure terrorism designed to end the peace process between Israel and Saudi and stir up tensions which had been easing.

I'm also going to note that prior to Hamas violently seizing control in Gaza in 2007, restrictions were much less severe and as noted tens of thousands of Palestinians travelled into Israel daily for work. The blockade itself and stricter restrictions came about due to the threat from Hamas - this is also why Egypt set up a blockade. Restrictions and visas were just starting to be eased up again due to the relative peace over the last year, but that's obviously not the case now.

Also worth noting that in both 2015 and 2021 Hamas rejected an offer from Israel to completely lift the blockade in return for a 5 year truce/ceasefire between them. Hamas would neither agree to a truce or ceasefire.

I'm also going to add that Israelis themselves protest regularly about the treatment of Palestine, and against their own government's actions. The left-wing kibbutzim (village communities) which were attacked in the October 7th massacre were full of people who believed the situation was wrong and did what they could to help Gaza. The Nova festival itself was part of a peace promotion.

[DrixlRey]

I think it's fairly clear there's plenty to blame Israel for, including exercising a far too tight grip on Palestine's trade and economy.

The main issue with trade with Palestine is that every import or export has to pass through a checkpoint. Most of these checkpoints are via the border with Israel. The reason every import and export is checked is for smuggled weaponry, but this isn't necessarily done quickly and it does slow down what Palestine can bring in and mean that the majority of their trade is done with Israel because that's simply the easiest way for them. This has a significant negative economic effect on Palestine.

They do also have a trade route through Egpyt. Egypt also have a blockade on Gaza and check all imports and exports, and Egypt have previously closed and even bombed this route when they found weapons being smuggled through, as well as flooded tunnels under the crossing.

Fuel is generally closely monitored, it's fully restricted currently because they're trying to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israel (alongside the air strikes Israel are carrying out, hundreds of rockets are fired into Israel daily - Israel has better air protections but they can't stop them all - this is also the reason that Israeli homes are built with bomb shelters). Hamas is known to steal fuel from aid organisations, this has been reported directly by the United Nations Relief Agency, but it's well known. Hamas do still have fuel supplies, because they're still sending rockets. Palestinian citizens do not have fuel and are in an electricity crisis which is also affecting places like hospitals.

Water - the land of Israel and Palestine are water poor in general. There isn't enough water for the whole region, and a lot of the water comes from ground supplies. There are strict water quotas for both Israel and Palestine due to this, however Israel takes the lions share of the water, and much of the water in Gaza is desalinated water, for which they need desalination plants (a lot of homes have the capacity to desalinate water for drinking, but to supply the country plants are needed) which run on fuel, which goes back to the fuel issue above. You may have seen talk of Hamas digging up water pipes to use to make rockets and Israel filling in wells (not the traditional well we might think of, industrial wells) with cement. Both these things are true, both are also a little more complicated - Hamas probably used water pipes that were no longer in use, and the wells were filled in due to quota and supply issues. Israel absolutely should not have the control over Palestine's water that it does, Palestine should have water autonomy but water autonomy in that region requires both parties being able to trust each other and work together because there isn't unlimited water and quotas are necessary.

The issue on whether the control Israel exercised previously was illegal has gone back in forth in courts for a long time. It may or may not be illegal but it certainly isn't right, no matter their reasons for it.

The current situation where aid was cut off fully for days and fuel, food etc was cut off? Apparently it's not breaking international law, I don't really know how, but it doesn't overly matter: it's appalling, it punishes the wrong people and it needs to stop. Hamas have supplies for themselves anyway, they're not going to be stopped by cutting them off.

Were the ongoing restrictions what lead to Palestine 'rebelling'? The October 7th massacre was not Palestine 'rebelling' and Hamas are not freedom fighters, nor do Hamas care about Palestinian freedom: they're a puppet of Iran. So no. Was it a factor that may have lead many young Palestinian men to hate Israel, hate Jews and be willing to be used by Hamas as tools to carry out a massacre? Yeah, almost definitely. But there's absolutely nothing that justifies or excuses in any way the nature of the acts carried out on October 7th. That was pure terrorism designed to end the peace process between Israel and Saudi and stir up tensions which had been easing.

I'm also going to note that prior to Hamas violently seizing control in Gaza in 2007, restrictions were much less severe and as noted tens of thousands of Palestinians travelled into Israel daily for work. The blockade itself and stricter restrictions came about due to the threat from Hamas - this is also why Egypt set up a blockade. Restrictions and visas were just starting to be eased up again due to the relative peace over the last year, but that's obviously not the case now.

Also worth noting that in both 2015 and 2021 Hamas rejected an offer from Israel to completely lift the blockade in return for a 5 year truce/ceasefire between them. Hamas would neither agree to a truce or ceasefire.

I'm also going to add that Israelis themselves protest regularly about the treatment of Palestine, and against their own government's actions. The left-wing kibbutzim (village communities) which were attacked in the October 7th massacre were full of people who believed the situation was wrong and did what they could to help Gaza. The Nova festival itself was part of a peace promotion.

Thanks for this information. Why do you think the mainstream media seem to push Isreel so much, as in the government wants everyone to support Israel. What monetary gain are we to have from it? We get into so many wars, and I know we only go into war if it benefits us.

[pppp3]

Okay.

I don't usually speak about this stuff because as a left wing liberal many of my friends have deeply opposing views and also because, frankly, I've dealt with a lot of antisemitism as a result of this ongoing conflict, whether intended or not.

I will say the anti-semitism spewing out at the moment is abhorrent and should be denounced immediately. Unfortunately this situation has led to all the rank anti semetic goblins to come crawling out from under their bridges to spew hate and it's disgusting. I'm sorry you are experiencing this.



In my opinion Israel should ceasefire and demand that the hostages are released and the leaders of the terrorists are handed over - Hamas won't do that, obviously, but currently Israel are doing exactly what Hamas want them to do: they want them to launch a war, they want them to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible because they know that's the best way to inflame tensions in the region which may cause other ME states to act. Hamas want to draw others into the war and, ultimately, Hamas want to wipe out Israel and all Jews.


HAMAS has asked for a ceasfire, Netanyahu rejected it. The whole point of holding these hostages is to use them in exchange for the thousands of Palestinians being held without trial in prison for an undetermined amount of time. There's even a video that was released of 3 female Israeli hostages where one woman is screaming bloody murder for a ceasefire, to release the Palestinian hostages (as an exchange) and essentially berating the Isreali govt for continuing the bombardment of Gaza, leaving all the hostages at risk of death. Hamas WANTS to return the hostages, Netanyahu wants war.


The genocidal aim of Hamas is not in doubt. It's stated in their charter that they want every Jew dead.

Have you read their charter?? Obviously not.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] (it's translated into english but the point still stands...) "16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."

I'm not backing hamas and saying they're the good guys.. what they did on Oct 7th was deplorable.. I didn't come here to defend their actions. All I am saying is anger directed at people who have been forced into living like prisoners in their own country is misguided. Anger about what happened should be directed at the OCCUPATION THAT MADE THIS POSSIBLE/ INEVITABLE. Human RIghts Activists had been warning for MONTHS that a violent escalation was bound to happen. Violence in the West Bank from racist settlers was at an all time high, illegal incarcerations also... The Israeli govt ignored these warnings. They even WANTED hamas to gain power and influence as having a radical Islamist party in power would "split" Palestine in two. Keep them fighting amongst themselves rather than joining together as one people... Netenyahu literally said “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,”.... so don't blame Palestine for Hamas.. blame the occupation. I will also say I found this: [Only registered and activated users can see links] episode of the Dig to be extremely informative on how Hamas was created, why they turned to armed resistance, how they were funded and why they became the political leaders of Palestine.




Indigenous claim to the land:
Both Palestinians and Jews have an indigenous claim to the land. Both have been there as long as we've had recorded history. I would hope this isn't in doubt by anyone. Beyond this - Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews are essentially the same people, and Ashkenazi Jews (who predominantly fled Europe after the Holocaust) have a genome that is near identical to the Palestinian genome. They're the same people. They originate from the same place. Both groups have the right to live there.

.....
Other than Israel, Jews have never had any other homeland, and have been massacred and expelled from pretty much every other country they have lived in, other than the US.

Jews absolutely do have a deep history with Palestine, no one is doubting that. And you are correct, the Jewish people did not had a "homeland" in the traditional sense, but this did not give anyone the right to forcibly remove the indigenous people who were CURRENTLY living there. Especially when you consider that Palestine wasn't the only place considered... Israel could very well have been placed in Africa or the NT of Australia. Zionism wasn't even a popular ideology until after WWII, it always has been a controversial ideology, even amongst Jewish folks themselves.




Then please understand why describing Jews as 'white settler colonialists' in the land they originated from, after having gone back there following 2 out of 3 of them being murdered specifically for not being white is antisemitic.


Zionism is LITERALLY settler colonialism though.. a bunch of immigrant settlers arrive and colonise the land where people already lived.





The land was divided up so that Israel was given just over 50 percent of the territory for its homeland. Part of the reasoning behind this was that the Palestinians did also live in Jordan and other parts of the ME, while the Jews had nowhere, but obviously if they weren't going to accept giving up 1/3rd of the land, giving up 50% of it was not going to happen.


Of course they rejected it.. it was just over 50% but it contained MOST of the fertile land, established olive groves and orange orchards... I think from memory it was about 80% of the established farmland went to the Jewish half.. they also lost a direct trade route to Syria and their most important sea port. I'd say no to a proposal like that as well.





So did Israel come and kick out the Palestinians and take their land? No, they were given it under an agreement with the League of Nations, which Arab leaders actively refused to participate in.

Once again, of course they did... Anyone would reject such a shitty deal.



Some 600 - 700,000 Palestinians were displaced and you may have seen this referred to in social media hot takes as the 'Nakba' or 'Catastrophe'. It is also referred to as the Israeli war of independence.

Not gonna lie... to see you refer to the Nakba as a "social media hot take" is pretty revolting.




In 1967 came the Six Day War - Egypt, Syria and Jordan again used the Palestinian land that they occupied to launch a war against Israel. They were defeated, and this time Israel forced them out of Palestinian territory and occupied it themselves - again, as a defensive buffer against attack.

So, you will have seen on social media that Palestine has been occupied for '75 years'. It was occupied by other ME countries from 1948 - 1967, and Israel pulled out of occupation in Gaza in 2005. The reasons Israel occupied it to begin with were defensive, not aggressive.

On October 6th, 1973 (the date is relevant) Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur war on Israel, again using Palestine in its attacks. Israel lost some territory in this war, and ultimately a peace treaty was signed where Egypt agreed to recognise Israel's right to exist, and diplomatic relations between the two countries began.

There have been a total of fifteen wars launched against Israel since its foundation.

Fifteen wars, launched against a tiny country squished in between many vast countries who don't believe it has a right to exist.


So, when we talk about who the oppressor is here, we have to look at the whole Russian Doll. Israel may have powerful backers - without America's backing, for example, there would no longer be any Israel - but Israel is in turn attacked and oppressed by its neighbours, and it has become a defensive country with sharp teeth as that is the only way it has survived until now.
So, all of this is interesting history, but I really don't see the relevance when we're discussing the brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. Israel IS oppressing Palestinians. Look at Gaza, look at the ever shrinking West Bank.. The govt and IDF literally encourage illegal settlements. If you're a Palestinian you're treated as sub human. If you're an Israeli "arab" (a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship) you're treated as a second class citizen. You can't walk on certain streets, you have a different coloured number plate, you can't drive on certain roads, no one will rent to you in the "jewish" areas if you're an arab... THAT IS OPPRESSION.



I have seen people attempt to justify the Hamas massacre by saying 'oppressed people eventually fight back' - consider then what a people driven out of every country they have ever attempted to build a home in, subject to attacks and massacres for centuries, who saw two out of three of their people murdered in the event for which the word genocide was invented, who were treated as less than human, who were sent to a place that didn't want them and immediately attacked for being there, who have seen fifteen wars launched against their tiny nation state may be willing to do to keep its small population safe?

If "keeping your country safe" involves literal Apartheid then I'm sorry you don't deserve a country.



I also want to address the use of the term genocide to describe Israel's actions in Gaza.


Oh here we go....



In short, it's not genocide. For one thing, the population in Gaza in 1965 was 265k and it is now 2.1mil - so if there's been an ongoing genocide it's been an incredibly unsuccessful one. The Palestinian population is growing far faster than the world jewish population. But what about the current horrific attacks on Gaza, isn't that genocide? No, it's not genocide, it is not an attempt to wipe out a specific race or group of people. Whatever you think about Israel's actions, and I certainly disagee with them, they are not trying to kill all Palestinians and they never have.

???? An incremental genocide is still genocide. Annexing an entire population into a tiny area, limiting their food imports, keeping 90+% of water unpotable... then in the West Bank, forcing entire villages to relocate and disperse or else suffer violent retribution, cut off water, electricity... THAT IS GENOCIDAL. Even some of the Israeli folks being interviewed on the news are using the most heinous genocidal language...
“I apologize, but there are no innocent civilians in Gaza,”
“Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948,”
“We need a disproportionate response … If all the captives are not returned immediately, turn the strip into a slaughterhouse. If a hair falls from their head - execute security prisoners. Violate any norm, on the way to victory,”
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

......


Call it unacceptable. Call it inhumane treatment. Call it collective punisment. But using the term genocide cheapens it and, in the manner that it is often used to attack Israel by claiming they're doing as was done to them in the holocaust it is, I'm afraid, antisemitic.

it IS GENOCIDAL. and to hide behind the Holocaust/ anti semite card is honestly so lazy. What happened in the holocaust was BARBARIC. It stands alone in history as one of the ugliest things humans have ever done. but that does NOT mean Israel isn't commiting genocide. It's different, for sure, but it is still genocidal.



Similarly, describing Gaza as a concentration camp is inaccurate and an offensive way of using the history of genocide against the jews against them in a whole new way. There are many ways to describe Israel's oppression of Palestine - and yes, we've established they do and have oppressed Palestine, even with the context above - without resorting to language which cheapens the holocaust.

Not to do the whole "dictionary definition" thing here, but : "a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution. "
A very famous ISRAELI sociologist Baruch Kimmerling described Gaza as "the largest concentration camp ever to exist". Academic Norman Finkelstein (who's entire extended family was exterminated in Auschwitz btw) called Gaza “the World's Largest Concentration Camp”. So it's not such a wild take.





Addressing the blockade on Palestine? Israel withdrew from occupying Gaza in 2005. In 2007 Hamas were voted into power, and then seized full power by murdering the leaders of the opposing Fatah party and dragging their bodies through the streets. Both Israel and Egypt blockaded Gaza in 2007 as a response to Hamas' aggression, attacks, and repeated smuggling of weapons. Prior to 2007 tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens had visas to travel into Israel for work. It was much easier to leave Palestine both to go into Israel or to travel elsewhere (still not easy, but much easier) and far more aid got through. The worsening situation for Gaza since 2007 is in significant part due to Hamas.

So Hamas being violent radicals justifies the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians? Literally this morning I woke up to the news that Israel bombed a line of Ambulances attempting to carry injured civilliants out into Egypt... many medics, civilians, journalists have died.. what has this got to do with Hamas? Hamas hamas hamas.... Ive seen some pretty shoooocking videos taken by the IDF in recent days, stomach churning videos where soldiers are blindfolding, torturing, humiliating Palestinian civillians. If Hamas are a terrorist organisation, the IDF are in the same boat.



And addressing the West Bank? The settlements in that area are criminal and should be taken down, Netanyahu is scum. In providing context to what is happening in Israel I by no means absolve it of its crimes.

At least we agree on this.



So - Free Palestine?

Yes, Palestine should be free. But I hope the above goes some way to explain why it's really really difficult to 'free' territory whose people have been used by so many other countries, and who are currently being used by Hamas, to launch attacks on Israel.

The desperately needed peace process can't be one sided. Israel can't be peaceful by itself, nor should higher expectations be placed on Israel than are every other country in the region.

Lmao.. Israel has NEVER been peaceful that is the whole point. Of course it will be a difficult situation but something MUST be done. You can't keep an entire population living like dogs, under violent apartheid indefinitely. Something has to change, and the one holding the power is ISRAEL.




I've talked forever, I really hope it's helped some people who may not know the context here. But I want to address one more thing, which is the vast rise in antisemitism in the West. It is not just disappointing but heartbreaking to me that it's currently impossible for a Jewish person to post sharing their personal pain without threats and insults. It's heartbreaking to me that people are claiming the deaths of Jews don't matter, or are justified, or are being lied about. People pull down the posters of the missing. Peopke interrupt gatherings to mourn the dead. People attack Jewish students on college campuses. Jewish children in London are warned not to be visibly Jewish. Just today an airport was invaded by a mob who wanted to attack innocent Israelis who were arriving on a plane from Tel Aviv.

The anti semitism, and islamaphobia spewing out of the world right now is appalling... unfortunately there will always be ugly people who use times like this to be hateful and ignorant. It's horrible. I will say however that being anti-zionist isn't inherently anti-semetic, there are thousands of jewish voices currently calling out the violent zionist regime.



I've lived a privileged life thinking I would never have to see the hate and persecution my grandparents did. Sure, I've seen jewish friends on twitter be sent graphic holocaust pictures, or pictures of gas ovens in responses to posts they made about their faith. I've seen Temples attacked. I've seen hassidic jews spat at in the streets - all of that before all this happened - but I didn't expect what's happening now and it frightens me. Where it could lead frightens me.

The majority of the western world is still 100% supporting Israel. You are NOT experiencing what your grandparents did in the holocaust.. You talk about "cheapening" the holocaust, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing by comparing what is happening now with then. Yikes.




Words matter. Words like the ones I've used above matter, because they cause violence. Using zionist as a slur, or saying 'I'm not antisemitic, I'm anizionist' matters. Zionist doesn't refer to the small group of extremists who believe the whole of the land of Israel should belong to the jews - those people exist, sure, but they're not the representative group. At its fundamental level, zionism means 'a belief that the Jews should have a homeland in Israel'.

I'll be honest, the actual location of the homeland doesn't matter much to me personally. If we'd been given Thessaloniki there would probably have been far fewer of these horrendous, horrendous problems. But statistics tend to show about 9 out of 10 Jews believe that we should have a homeland in Israel - so when you say you're not antisemitic, you're antizionist, you mean you just have a problem with 9 out of 10 Jews.

I see a lot of non-Jews saying what is and isn't antisemitic, and I think - I would never tell a person of colour that what they feel is racist actually isn't. I would never tell a trans person what they feel is transphobic actually isn't. As a queer person, I wouldn't expect to be challenged over what I feel is homophobic. So I hope that people can understand that things that they don't feel are said with any antisemitic intent can feel intensely antisemitic on the receiving end and try to understand why.

What about all the anti zionist jews? When you hide behind the anti semetic trope whenever someone criticises Israel you are discrediting all of the jewish folks who disagree with you, you are discrediting Israeli activists who have dedicated their lives to ending the occupation, you are painting everyone with a broad brush which is not only lazy it is unacceptable.
You can call it anti semetic, but you are wrong. Sure, some people will use it as an excuse to be anti semetic, but thhat does not mean that ALL criticism is so. It's honestly that simple.



By all means call for free Palestine, I agree with you. Please call for an Israeli ceasefire and call Israel out on its crimes and abuses. But do try to understand why the instinct for harsh defence is there, in the same way that you understand it for the Palestinians. I would ask that with every call for a ceasefire you equally and at the same time call for Hamas to give up the hostages and surrender its leaders. Because Hamas has the capacity to do one good thing for the people of Palestine and do its part toward securing a ceasefire too. Because peace can't be one sided. Because everyone should get to be safe, and free.

Absolutely. Ceasefire now. Begin the motions to ENDING the occupation. Free Gaza, free the hostages on both sides, eradicate the fascist alt right Israeli Govt, eradicate Hamas, give all Palestinians the same rights as Israeli citizens.
FREE PALESTINE.



ALSO!! To anyone who is interested, I made a playlist of various podcasts regarding this issue. Various sources including Israeli activists living in Israel, Palestinian voices, both living in Palestine and in diaspora, various scholars and academics who are extremely knowledgeable on the subject. If anyone wants to dive into some interesting and educational episodes here's a link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

There's episodes explaining what HAMAS is, the history of the piece of land we know as Israel/ Palestine, why anti zionist Jewish voices are so important right now, media bias when discussing Palestine etc etc. Totals just over 9 hours so you could easily get through them all in a few days.


P.S not to be a stickler but in another reply you say : "The Nova festival itself was part of a peace promotion. " .... this is not true. Idk why the media spun Nova as a "peace festival" when it was just a regular old doof. Psytrance party. Nothing overly peaceful about these things. Universo Parallello is a south American festival promoter and they have parties all over the world. Nothing to do with "peace in Israel". Being a part of the psytrance community myself I also know people directly affected by the Nova massacre.. my partner could very well have been PLAYING there as he was meant to go on tour in Israel last month but it was cancelled last minute. I am SO grateful he was not there. But to play up on the "peace festival" narrative is disingenuous.

P.P.S!
For anyone interested: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Edit 3: for anyone claiming anti-Zionism is anti- Semitic: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[abaj]

Feels bad, man. I have been reading up on the histories of both people prior to the recent conflict, and it's a shame that there were moments where compromises between both sides were almost realized before something ruined it. It's also a grim reminder that the rules based international order is a farce and only works when you are on the "right" side. There has been a lot of posturing from the Islamic world but I do not think that they will be doing anything to stop this conflict. Sorry to say but I think the Palestinians are completely fucked at the rate it's going even if a ceasefire miraculously happens (it won't, the Israelis are out for blood this time). Any attempts to quell the conflict through outside force will result in a bigger clusterfuck that no nation, not even Iran, will be interested in causing. The only thing I, as an individual can do, is to donate to help the victims of the war and hope that they can receive the aid they desperately need.

[pppp3]

^ Be careful donating money atm as lots of the Palestinians with big followings on instagram etc are saying they're not seeing much in the way of aid. Better off (for now) going to protests, boycotting certain brands and entities (google BDS palestine), calling your local and state MPs to put in a complaint (or go old school and write a letter) and even something as simple as amplifying Palestinian voices (sharing their content on your stories to get more reach). Social media has played a really powerful role in this wave of resistance. The Israeli propaganda machine is failing big time. Once a ceasefire is granted and we can actually SEE aid being distributed, donating to credible charities and the like will be super important. Also keeping active and not letting the idea of Palestinian liberation fall to the wayside once the bombs stop blasting every one to pieces. A ceasefire is the first step, then working on dismantling the occupation and ending all forms of apartheid should be the next.

[jmg]

I know this is an old thread but I think what Israel is doing currently and in the past to Palestine is abhorrent. It's genocide on every level and it has been horrific seeing the nonstop violence. I always have been, and always will be, anti-war. I'm also very tired of the rhetoric that anyone who is against what Israel is doing is antisemitic. That couldn't be further from the truth. I don't have any ill feelings towards Judaism or the people who practice it. I do have a problem with acts of violence. The people being killed are innocent and they have lived very hard lives due to Israel's actions against them. I've been disgusted with the US government and other governments aiding and funding Israel's actions. It's also shocking to me that any Jewish people are okay with what is happening. They are no strangers to being the victims of senseless violence and genocide. So for them to be committing the genocide themselves, is such a scary thing to witness. I would think of all people they would know how wrong this is.

[pppp3]

Interested to see what happens with the ICJ hearing. South Africa had some compelling points.. if a case for genocide is even plausible it looks like many western countries will have to reconsider their stance so as not to get mixed up in potential war crimes. Also the fact that it was South Africa to lead the charge is *chefs kiss*

[mokavanila]

I know this is an old thread but I think what Israel is doing currently and in the past to Palestine is abhorrent. It's genocide on every level and it has been horrific seeing the nonstop violence. I always have been, and always will be, anti-war. I'm also very tired of the rhetoric that anyone who is against what Israel is doing is antisemitic. That couldn't be further from the truth. I don't have any ill feelings towards Judaism or the people who practice it. I do have a problem with acts of violence. The people being killed are innocent and they have lived very hard lives due to Israel's actions against them. I've been disgusted with the US government and other governments aiding and funding Israel's actions. It's also shocking to me that any Jewish people are okay with what is happening. They are no strangers to being the victims of senseless violence and genocide. So for them to be committing the genocide themselves, is such a scary thing to witness. I would think of all people they would know how wrong this is.

58019

Israel is fully justified in using military force to respond to Hamas’s October 7 attack.

[jmg]

58019

Israel is fully justified in using military force to respond to Hamas’s October 7 attack.

They are murdering innocent citizens that have nothing to do with Hamas. Gaza is also essentially a giant open aired prison. When you treat people like animals and take away everything from them, you're welcoming violence. People have a right to be free without oppression.

[pppp3]

lmao you realise birth rates have nothing to do with genocide right? birth rates are up all over the world. also you're kind of disproving your own point with that graph... an average of 250 palestinians a day are dying in gaza with a population of about 2million.. so far over 1% of the population is confirmed dead (not including dead under rubble, which there would be thousands more). if whats happening now is allowed to continue for the same length of time as say, the cambodian genocide (4 years/ 1464 days) that would be nearly 20% of the population if the average daily deaths stays the same. if you think this is anything but war crimes and ethnic cleansing you are truly misguided and / or racist.

[Druid]

Israel is committing genocide and apartheid, and has been since long before October 7th. I'm going to say right at the top that Hamas did also commit war crimes that day, which I don't condone, because that's something that gets twisted if it's not made explicitly clear, but the scale is honestly not at all comparable.

I also acknowledge that as an occupied people, Palestinians do have a legal right to armed resistance. Here's an article outlining relevant international law (not written in the context of the Oct 7th attack, but provides some important context for exactly how skewed the response has been): Palestinians have a legal right to armed struggle ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Al Jazeera, 2017

Trying to avoid saying too much that's personally identifying but I've been focused on this more than anything else for the last few months - there's a lot of Zionism in the legal field, and law students are silenced, sanctioned, lose job and placement opportunities, etc for saying anything in support of Palestine. So yeah I've been doing a lot of reading/analyzing/advocating in that vein. I'll compile a bunch of sources here for anyone interested. A few things are unfortunately paywalled, I personally use Firefox with the Bypass Paywalls Clean v3.4.9.0 extension to get around that.

The Harvard Law Review Refused to Run This Piece About Genocide in Gaza ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - the Nation, Nov 21 2023
This includes a brief overview about why the Law Review pulled the essay, “The Ongoing Nakba: Towards a Legal Framework for Palestine,” from publication, with a more thorough report linked, and then includes the essay itself. To be clear, it was on track for publication before being pulled - please ignore the clickbaity vibe the Nation has added. The author, Rabea Eghbariah, is a human rights lawyer and doctoral candidate at Harvard. I first read the essay when he posted it / before this Nation thing, and it's a really strong piece.

The double standard with Israel and Palestine leaves us in moral darkness ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - the Guardian, Oct 11 2023
"On 7 October, the national security council spokesperson Adrienne Watson stated that the US “unequivocally condemns the unprovoked attacks by Hamas terrorists against Israeli civilians”. Every one of us must stand up and denounce the killing of every civilian, Israeli or Palestinian or otherwise. But Watson’s use of the word “unprovoked” is doing a lot of work here. What exactly counts as a provocation? Not, apparently, the large number of settlers, more than 800 by one media account, who stormed the al-Aqsa mosque compound on 5 October. Not the 248 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces or settlers between 1 January and 4 October of this year. Not the denial of Palestinian human rights and national aspirations for decades. One can, in fact must, see such actions as provocations without endorsing further murderous violence against civilians. But if you watched only US news, you would be likely to presume that Palestinians always act while Israel only reacts."

‘Our country has lost its moral compass’: Arundhati Roy ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Frontline, Dec 15 2023
"In the US, to speak of Intifada—uprising, resistance—in this case against genocide, against your own erasure—is considered to be a call for the genocide of Jews. The only moral thing Palestinian civilians can do apparently is to die. The only legal thing the rest of us can do is to watch them die. And be silent. If not, we risk our scholarships, grants, lecture fees and livelihoods."

Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Amnesty International, 2022
This describes Israel's system of apartheid against Palestinians, before Oct 7


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
**At a glance this video has kind of a propaganda, one-sidey vibe, but around the 2min mark it starts directly quoting Israeli polls (put out by the ACRI ([Only registered and activated users can see links])) and legislation. This kind of widely-held attitude sheds some light on why Zionists are claiming that the chant "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a genocidal call to kill all Jews in Israel and Palestine rather than what it actually is, a call to end apartheid and genocide against Palestinians in Israel and Palestine.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
& another relevant point from James J. Zogby, a scholar and the founder of the Arab American Institute ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (which is the "we" mentioned in the tweet)


The state of Israel puts a LOT of work into 1) conflating Zionism with Judaism, and therefore conflating anti-Zionism and anti-colonialism with anti-Semitism, to accuse anyone who questions the actions of the state with anti-Semitic hate speech, and 2) a long campaign of dehumanizing Palestinians, which has done a lot to make this genocide palatable. It's extremely similar to language used in Germany about Jews leading up to WWII.

Netanyahu deputy charged with administering Palestinians says they are ‘beasts, not human’ ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Mondoweiss, 2015

Israel’s Netanyahu likens Islamists to ‘wild beasts’ ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Washington Post, 2016

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
(Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's verified account)

Israeli politician: ‘The children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves’ ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Mondoweiss, Oct 18 2023

Israel paints Palestinians as 'animals' to legitimize war crimes: Israeli scholar ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Anadolu Ajansı, Oct 24 2023

Netanyahu's references to violent biblical passages raise alarm among critics ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - NPR, Nov 7 2023
This one includes a quote from the Israeli prime minister using Amalek as a metaphor for Israel’s response to the Oct 7th attack - in the Hebrew bible Amalek was a neighbouring territory that threatened Israel and God commanded that they be completely eradicated. “Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

Comparing Hamas to Amalek, our biblical nemesis, will ultimately hurt Israel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - The Jewish News of Northern California, Nov 2 2023
& a Jewish think piece on the same comment from Netanyahu

That kind of consistent commentary from the state leads to the prevalence of this kind of attitude (including their profile details because these aren't just like, ill-advised kids or random online trolls, they're prominent, educated people speaking confidently under their real names - it's sickening):
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

“These animals can no longer live” says Israel’s oldest reservist ([Only registered and activated users can see links]:~:text=%E2%80%9CThese%20animals%20can%2 0no%20longer%20live%E2%80%9D.,with%20Hamas%20fight ers%20in%20Gaza.) - Al Jazeera, Oct 14 2023
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It is a genocide.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Damning evidence of war crimes as Israeli attacks wipe out entire families in Gaza ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Amnesty International, Oct 20 2023

“2023 War on Gaza: The Responsibility to Prevent Genocide” ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - United Nations, Dec 12 2023

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
- the CEO of Save the Children ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

A lot of these links and descriptions were assembled and ready to go in my sent texts to my dad, because when I was visiting over Christmas I mentioned the word genocide and it turned into a huge fight. He's an educated, reasonable person, and he knows a basic overview of the history of the state Israel and the way it was formed in the 40s. He said he "hasn't been keeping up with what's going on, but it's very complicated" and was adamant that he could not accept that "the Jewish state has genocidal intent." I'd mention direct quotes from Israeli politicians, he'd say that doesn't mean it's the view of the whole state ("it's the PM and the defence minister"), or it must be taken out of context ("it's from a press conference, about this"). I'd mention statistics and things that have been targeted, he'd say he doesn't trust my sources ("Amnesty International and the UN"). We had to fully give up on talking, and I sent him a bunch of this stuff to read.

I'm mentioning this fight because it's an example of Israel's meticulous public image campaign, specifically the conflation of Zionism and Judaism, working exactly as designed. The public generally knows there's a complex history, knows about the Holocaust and the persecution of Jews, and as a result there's an extreme aversion to critiquing Israel at all out of fear of being anti-Semitic.There are a lot of anti-Zionist Jewish people - they get silenced by Zionists as "a handful of self-hating Jews." Israel is not Judaism. It is a state, with an army, committing atrocities. There is some added nuance from a colonial perspective - there's a difference between colonizing out of like, greed and a sense of adventure [UK flag emoji] and colonizing as stateless refugees. And the UK was directly involved in "giving" Palestine to Israel (because of course) - it was occupying Palestine before. While other formerly British-occupied territories have achieved independence, Palestine has remained subject to apartheid and genocide.

And no one is calling for the expulsion of all Israelis from Palestine, which is how anti-colonialist and anti-Zionist perspectives get framed. But the Israeli government absolutely is trying to kill or expel all Palestinians, which is the dark and terrible irony of the whole thing. It is our responsibility to educate ourselves, to read about what's really going on, before attaching ourselves to particular opinions based on vibes and censorship. And I know "educate ourselves" feels like a propaganda-loaded term, but look at what both sides are saying and form an opinion based on that. Seek out primary sources, and think critically about them. A bunch of stuff in this post is Israeli, or is written in response to publicly-available Israeli statements. They're not hiding it, they're just saying it's justified. It isn't - nothing justifies genocide.


ADL counts 3,000 antisemitic incidents since Oct. 7, two-thirds tied to Israel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - The Forward, Jan 10 2024
"Jonathan Greenblatt, the group’s chief executive, said in an embargoed news release that the count — which the group calculated as 360% higher than the same period in 2022 — represented a threat to Jews “unprecedented in modern history.” But the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7 Hamas attack to include rallies that feature “anti-Zionist chants and slogans,” events that appear to account for around 1,317 of the total count."
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
This point is particular pertinent - falsely claiming pro-Palestinian speech is anti-Semitic, in the short term, does a lot to villainize the Palestinian solidarity movement, but at the same time it's "boy who cried wolf"-ing anti-Semitism which ultimately endangers Jews.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

...also that fight over the word genocide was the literal day before South Africa brought the genocide case to the ICJ.

Read the full application bringing genocide charges against Israel at UN top court ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - PBS, Jan 3 2024

I highly recommend reading the whole application if you have the attention span, and following the case - there's video available. If you don't want to read 84 pages (fair) there are summaries available too, like this:

Canada must end potential genocide complicity by suspending arms exports to Israel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Ceasefire.ca, Jan 5 2024
"The South African court application includes nine pages of evidence of genocidal intent, including calls from Israeli decision-makers and military officials for Gaza to be “wiped out”, “flattened”, “erased”, and “crushed”, and statements such as '[t]here are no innocents in Gaza; the children of Gaza have brought this on themselves; there should be one sentence for everyone there — death.'"


Israel has bombed every hospital in Gaza. Some thousand + children have had limbs amputated without anesthesia. Israel controls the borders of Gaza, which it has blockaded. It has cut food, water, electricity and internet. It has targeted and killed over 100 journalists, to suppress public knowledge of its war crimes - this is itself also a war crime. And in its allied countries - Canada, the US, and the UK especially - speaking out against Israel, or even in solidarity with Palestine, is posited as hate speech. I honestly don't know what to do, beyond just staying informed, continuing to talk about it, and fighting reprisal as needed.




In short, it's not genocide. For one thing, the population in Gaza in 1965 was 265k and it is now 2.1mil - so if there's been an ongoing genocide it's been an incredibly unsuccessful one. The Palestinian population is growing far faster than the world jewish population. But what about the current horrific attacks on Gaza, isn't that genocide? No, it's not genocide, it is not an attempt to wipe out a specific race or group of people. Whatever you think about Israel's actions, and I certainly disagee with them, they are not trying to kill all Palestinians and they never have.

Call it unacceptable. Call it inhumane treatment. Call it collective punisment. But using the term genocide cheapens it and, in the manner that it is often used to attack Israel by claiming they're doing as was done to them in the holocaust it is, I'm afraid, antisemitic.

I posted this before reading back through the whole thread. I want to clarify that when I talk about genocide, I mean under Netanyahu's government (actively since October 2023, and with rhetoric leading toward that for years before) - not for the entirety of the time the state of Israel has existed. You also covered in great detail a lot of the history that I skimmed over, which I appreciate. It is absolutely noteworthy that it's not like a Jewish government came in out of nowhere and started oppressing Palestinians, the Nakba was a collaborative effort and Jews were extraordinarily wounded as a people in the Holocaust immediately before that.


I see a lot of non-Jews saying what is and isn't antisemitic, and I think - I would never tell a person of colour that what they feel is racist actually isn't. I would never tell a trans person what they feel is transphobic actually isn't. As a queer person, I wouldn't expect to be challenged over what I feel is homophobic. So I hope that people can understand that things that they don't feel are said with any antisemitic intent can feel intensely antisemitic on the receiving end and try to understand why.
I think a big part of this is that pro-Palestinian speech is being misconstrued and assigned meanings it doesn't have, and which would make it anti-Semitic if that's what it actually meant. I agree that telling marginalized groups what they should and shouldn't be offended by feels wrong, but where I've seen this actually occurring it's less "that isn't offensive" and more "that isn't what that means."

Like, "from the river to the sea" is the big one - it does not mean and has never meant killing all Jews in that region, but it has been construed in that way by particular people with the goal of villainizing Palestinian solidarity, and that meaning has been spread to Jews who are of course horrified by it. That meaning needs to be corrected, which comes out as "but wait it's not anti-Semitic," which feels gross. And then there are the same people who assigned it that meaning in the first place going like, "well if that's how Jews hear it how dare you tell them they're wrong," meanwhile it's still being used at the peaceful protests it was co-opted from, and letting people hear it as a genocidal cry against Jewish people is extremely harmful. But even if it were swapped out, whatever new chant protestors came up with would get the same treatment, because the people working to villainize Palestinian voices are relentless and efficient.


By all means call for free Palestine, I agree with you. Please call for an Israeli ceasefire and call Israel out on its crimes and abuses. But do try to understand why the instinct for harsh defence is there, in the same way that you understand it for the Palestinians. I would ask that with every call for a ceasefire you equally and at the same time call for Hamas to give up the hostages and surrender its leaders. Because Hamas has the capacity to do one good thing for the people of Palestine and do its part toward securing a ceasefire too. Because peace can't be one sided. Because everyone should get to be safe, and free.
I think the "equally" is where things get lost here, because condemning Hamas is like, already a given. As you said, Hamas is a militant group that took control over Gaza with force. They knew Israel would respond violently to the Oct 7th attack, which was deplorable, and they do not have the interests of Palestinian people at heart - they rely on unrest in the area to maintain power, so they want to extend that unrest. Condemning Hamas is not controversial, it has been the predominant position of everybody since October 7th.

The Western world as a whole is incredibly skewed toward Israel, which is what created the need for leftists to speak up for Palestine. That does create echo-chambers where we're the majority, but we are still functionally a distinct minority. Part of what gave rise to the movement is the difference between the outpouring of support for Israel on October 7th and the absolute silence on the violence against Palestine before that. Adding "and Hamas" to every condemnation of Israel would just uphold that imbalance - it's not that we don't condemn Hamas, but is everyone condemning Hamas throwing in an "and Israel"? Maybe a little more now, as the genocide case gets more undeniable, but in November? No, people were losing their jobs for condemning Israel. And there's the scale - I don't want them to have hostages, I don't think their leaders should be free to keep doing what they're doing, but in terms of severity of devastation those are both a fraction of what's going on in Gaza. That cannot be as much of a priority, and somehow at the same time, for the mainstream media it is the only priority.

[Politoed]

I dont like war, I dont like people being hurt. Honest truth and child like as it may I wish we all could get along :(