Donald Trump's Banning Transgender People From Serving - Right or Wrong?

[Aura]

Donald Trump posted on Twitter today that transgender people will not be permitted to serve in the military:
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What are your guys' opinion on this? Is he right in this decision, or is it discrimination towards the minority group?
I don't believe he's right to do this. To assume that all transgender people aren't fit to serve is discrimination, in my opinion. This lumps the entire group together and doesn't show any exceptions. What if there are transgender people who aren't on medication, if the fact that they need medication could be an argument? There may be some people with mental/physical issues, but that does come with any group of people.

Let me just say this now, personal attacks, flaming, and harassment of any kind won't be tolerated. If you disagree with someone, keep it civil and don't start calling each other names.

[Urbex]

I disagree with keeping them out of the service, if ANYBODY wants to serve our country, they should be allowed to do so.
However, I am very against the military having to pay for transgender surgeries and medical costs. My taxpayer dollars shouldn't have to cover your optional/elective surgery, your own health insurance or pocket should be paying. We need to cut back our military spending, not increase it.

[Daviid]

The only reason I see to do that would be, if anything, some people feeling uncomfortable about shower time? I don't know.

As far as I know there are already women in the military, and at some point there was a vote to require women to register for the draft.
So what extra spending?

As long as the person in question passes all tests and all those necessary things to enter the military, why the hell care if the person in question is man woman transgender furry or apache helicopter.

Enviado desde mi S3 mediante Tapatalk

[Cybun]

To put it simply

- If they're transitioning:
No

- After full transition, if they don't need to take hormones or spend hours "dilating" and are screened like everyone else:
Yes

[RavenInfini]

He's an idiot in general. Paying for their surgeries is different. That's a personal issue they should fund themselves since it's not life or death. Anyone who is mentally stable and in decent health should be able to serve.

[I_royalty_I]

I know one of the primary reasons for this decision, like Urbex stated, is because most of the time the military is looked at to cover the costs of operations/treatments and such. Previously, the policies under Obama required the government to pay for all medical treatments. Perhaps if they took that stipulation away, then things would be fine.

I don't think it has anything to do with an individuals ability to properly serve their country. The transgender people who are already in the military, im not sure what's going to happen there. Not sure of all the details right now. I can't say that I entirely support or oppose this decision at the moment. I guess we will see how it ends up working out.

[Drizzy]

A blanket ban is discrimination, that cannot be disputed.
I would be in favour of it however, I don't think it's the governments responsibility to pay for transitions.
And if someone is going through such a tough mental/physical battle along with hormone therapy then you'd have to assume that they would not be fit for combat either.

[Pusheen]

I get the reasoning behind that decision but I don't support it.

I'm not very informed about how the military in the USA supports the health of their members, do they usually cover any kind of medical treatments that military people need? In a 100%? Like, if I'm part of it and I want to get my boobs done, would they pay for me? Or is there a limit?

If there's no limit on that, I would say is the right thing to do since it could be exploited and abused (aka, transgenders that can't afford treatment would get in just to have the healthcare perks that come with it). But they shouldn't discriminate and if it was me, I would accept transgenders but don't provide the health support on that kind of treatment, that should be paid by them.

[Sugar Rush]

"tremendous medical costs"

A 2016 RAND Corporation study estimates that transgender make up 0.1-0.5% of active duty military. If military health care were extended to transgendered service members, increases in expenditures would represent between 0.005 to 0.017 percent of overall Department of Defense health care expenditures.

Citing tremendous medical costs like it's going to make or break us is pretty disingenuous. Let's be real for starters.

[Mindfang]

To put it simply

- If they're transitioning:
No

- After full transition, if they don't need to take hormones or spend hours "dilating" and are screened like everyone else:
Yes


the thing about this though is you never really "stop" transitioning. you dont just stop having to take hormones, and if you do, you'll start detransitioning (some are lucky and dont have this happen, but ive been off hrt for a year for health reasons and ive since started having periods/my voice is getting a little lighter/my hips and thighs are more pronounced and "feminine"), and just getting surgery doesnt mean youre automatically fully trans. theres no end to your transition.

so in saying this, youre essentially saying that trans people shouldnt be in the military... i know thats not what you said, and im not intentionally putting words in your mouth, im just pointing out that, for a majority if not all of trans people, theres no end to transition and so under your choices they wouldnt be allowed in the military.

do you mean top/bottom surgery and living full-time, 100% read as their gender? what if they dont want one of those surgeries (another personal example: i want a hysterectomy, but in order to do that, the nhs is insisting i get full bottom surgery to get a penis, which i 100% dont want because theres no One Surgery for dfab people getting penises, its a constant run to and from hospital to get changes done until you have a sort of sub-par looking cock, and the bottom (HEH) line is i wouldnt be comfortable with one / i have a trans woman friend whos comfortable with her penis for the same reasons)? what of people who cant afford to transition, or cant because of their living situation? my trans friend was recently discharged from the military after 3 months of boot camp because it came out that he wasnt a cis female like they assumed, and also he lives with depression (biggest reason for discharge, but they did mention the gender thing while discharging him). Because he wasnt "fully male", he wasnt allowed to continue training for the military, but if he transitions at home, his transphobic parents will disown him, and he cant afford the basic care for trans people thats necessary to transition on his own.

so in those cases what then?

[Lilac Tentacles]

I'm going to weigh in here since it personally affects me and my unit readiness. One post, that is all. I will not be replying or rebutting anything. I always get in trouble on these posts.

This is a good thing.
Up until a few years ago, transgenderism was a mental disorder. Not sure on the current status, but it is just that. It's your brain, not functioning cohesively with your body. It's a work hazard for everyone involved.

There is no such thing as "non-deployable". Either you're able to deploy, or you aren't. Pregnant women, medical injuries, psychological damage: all of it is pretty much ok short term because it doesn't affect long-term unit readiness for deployments. People are medically discharged all the time if they're deemed unfit for a period of time. Now take a transgendered person who requires medicine to keep their hormones in balance, has a 50% suicide rate, anxiety, disphoria, hormones imbalances, etc and tell me that's not going to impact a unit's ability to get boots off ground?

Now, say we are all deployed, the transgender person has fully transitioned, is mentally stable, passed all tests, and a supply line has been interrupted, the medic has run out of whatever hormones are required to maintain this person's body, and it'll be a while before another bag of pills comes in? It's a lot of "what ifs", but for the sake of a Soldier's life, I think hurting a few feelings is just necessary collateral damage. We aren't a social experiment. Joining the military isn't a right and since, up until a few years ago when PC culture took over, being transgendered was a mental illness, they don't fall under "discrimination" for a physically demanding job that can get people killed.
We disqualify people for asthma, eating disorders, long-term depression, blood disorders, EVERY physical handicap under the sun... why should this be any different? It screws with unit cohesion and the raw numbers for a unit to deploy. Especially since the government was supposed to foot the bill. How useful is someone to me if they're in and out of surgery, therapy, and recovery instead of being there for training? Feelings don't mean shit. Sorry guys, I know a couple hundred might be affected, but they're a bigger pain in the ass than they're worth to the military.

Love it or hate it... it was the right decision.

[Bexxie]

It is discrimination. If a person is physically fit and healthy to serve then let them. Although, I will say I don't think anyone should enlist just to have medical costs covered for their procedures as it isn't a life/death situation. You need to have the passion to serve. Basically, like I said, if they're healthy and have a passion to serve then whether or not they have or are transitioning shouldn't play a factor into that.

[I_royalty_I]

"tremendous medical costs"

A 2016 RAND Corporation study estimates that transgender make up 0.1-0.5% of active duty military. If military health care were extended to transgendered service members, increases in expenditures would represent between 0.005 to 0.017 percent of overall Department of Defense health care expenditures.

Citing tremendous medical costs like it's going to make or break us is pretty disingenuous. Let's be real for starters.

I saw similar statistics. It made me wonder where they were basing their numbers to be honest. The department of defense is quite large and includes many personnel who are not active duty military, aka not people to be include in the numbers. There are TONS of contractors and other employees who are under the DOD umbrella but aren't military.

Realistically though, I have no idea how much the procedures/treatments for transgendered people are so I can't say how impactful this cut would really be.

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------


I'm going to weigh in here since it personally affects me and my unit readiness. One post, that is all. I will not be replying or rebutting anything. I always get in trouble on these posts.

This is a good thing.
Up until a few years ago, transgenderism was a mental disorder. Not sure on the current status, but it is just that. It's your brain, not functioning cohesively with your body. It's a work hazard for everyone involved.

There is no such thing as "non-deployable". Either you're able to deploy, or you aren't. Pregnant women, medical injuries, psychological damage: all of it is pretty much ok short term because it doesn't affect long-term unit readiness for deployments. People are medically discharged all the time if they're deemed unfit for a period of time. Now take a transgendered person who requires medicine to keep their hormones in balance, has a 50% suicide rate, anxiety, disphoria, hormones imbalances, etc and tell me that's not going to impact a unit's ability to get boots off ground?

Now, say we are all deployed, the transgender person has fully transitioned, is mentally stable, passed all tests, and a supply line has been interrupted, the medic has run out of whatever hormones are required to maintain this person's body, and it'll be a while before another bag of pills comes in? It's a lot of "what ifs", but for the sake of a Soldier's life, I think hurting a few feelings is just necessary collateral damage. We aren't a social experiment. Joining the military isn't a right and since, up until a few years ago when PC culture took over, being transgendered was a mental illness, they don't fall under "discrimination" for a physically demanding job that can get people killed.
We disqualify people for asthma, eating disorders, long-term depression, blood disorders, EVERY physical handicap under the sun... why should this be any different? It screws with unit cohesion and the raw numbers for a unit to deploy. Especially since the government was supposed to foot the bill. How useful is someone to me if they're in and out of surgery, therapy, and recovery instead of being there for training? Feelings don't mean shit. Sorry guys, I know a couple hundred might be affected, but they're a bigger pain in the ass than they're worth to the military.

Love it or hate it... it was the right decision.

Ive never been in the military and I'm sure a lot of others forming opinions on this haven't been either. So we will never truly understand the impact something like this can have on a day to day basis. Yes, it's discrimination.. that much is pretty obvious. But when there are lives on the line, we need personnel who are 100% fit for duty and dependable. A blanket ban may seem a little harsh, but what's worse.. that or picking and choosing who gets in? Image how much of a mess that would be. I agree it's the right decision, for the time being. Transitioning can be a very difficult process. Add that into the rigors of combat and who knows what will happen. I'm sure there are folks out there who could beyond a doubt handle it, but I'm sure there are also those who wouldn't.

[Sugar Rush]

So for those of you who feel this is the right decision, how do you feel about homosexuals or women serving in the miltary? I think it's relevant because a lot of the arguments being said regarding transgender people have also been said about them. Homosexuals also have a higher suicide rate. Women were also thought unfit to serve due to regular hormonal changes. I mean, what a mess that would be. Just saying.

[Goner]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

And this is one of trump's tweets from a while back:

"Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs."

Lol.

[Cybun]

the thing about this though is you never really "stop" transitioning. you dont just stop having to take hormones, and if you do, you'll start detransitioning (some are lucky and dont have this happen, but ive been off hrt for a year for health reasons and ive since started having periods/my voice is getting a little lighter/my hips and thighs are more pronounced and "feminine"), and just getting surgery doesnt mean youre automatically fully trans. theres no end to your transition.

so in saying this, youre essentially saying that trans people shouldnt be in the military... i know thats not what you said, and im not intentionally putting words in your mouth, im just pointing out that, for a majority if not all of trans people, theres no end to transition and so under your choices they wouldnt be allowed in the military.

do you mean top/bottom surgery and living full-time, 100% read as their gender? what if they dont want one of those surgeries (another personal example: i want a hysterectomy, but in order to do that, the nhs is insisting i get full bottom surgery to get a penis, which i 100% dont want because theres no One Surgery for dfab people getting penises, its a constant run to and from hospital to get changes done until you have a sort of sub-par looking cock, and the bottom (HEH) line is i wouldnt be comfortable with one / i have a trans woman friend whos comfortable with her penis for the same reasons)? what of people who cant afford to transition, or cant because of their living situation? my trans friend was recently discharged from the military after 3 months of boot camp because it came out that he wasnt a cis female like they assumed, and also he lives with depression (biggest reason for discharge, but they did mention the gender thing while discharging him). Because he wasnt "fully male", he wasnt allowed to continue training for the military, but if he transitions at home, his transphobic parents will disown him, and he cant afford the basic care for trans people thats necessary to transition on his own.

so in those cases what then?

That depends on a few things then, like how disruptive is it to take hormones? How often do they need to do it? Can they afford not taking them for weeks to months if they're deployed and the military can't/won't provide them? Will the meds be taking up space that could be used for something more useful?
By fully transitioning I didn't mean they HAVE to have the surgery, but IF they had the surgery to make sure they don't have to do extra tasks that can be a nuisance if they're deployed (like the dilating part for MTF), I think what they have between their legs are of little use if what matters is if they're capable of doing their job. I know very little about the meds trans people have to take so I'm not sure if I'm talking crap and I apologize if I am cause my knowledge about this group of people is teeny-tiny.

I'm not entirely sure how it works for the military, but gender dysphoria here is considered a mental illness which immediately disqualifies someone from enlisting, I also heard that some medications they take may cause mood swings and other side effects that are a no-no if someone is serving but I don't know if it's true, just thought I'd throw this in here if someone knows more about it.
And if I think a little deeper it doesn't matter what the person identifies as, if they're FTM and are at a disadvantage physically they won't be given a free pass because that just wouldn't be very fair, as long as they can perform their tasks successfully and the military won't have any extra trouble with them then I believe they're free to serve! There's just a lot to consider beforehand.

[Mophead]

So for those of you who feel this is the right decision, how do you feel about homosexuals or women serving in the miltary? I think it's relevant because a lot of the arguments being said regarding transgender people have also been said about them. Homosexuals also have a higher suicide rate. Women were also thought unfit to serve due to regular hormonal changes. I mean, what a mess that would be. Just saying.
psh
Are you fuckin' serious?
Being gay doesn't put you on medication and have lifelong affects that physically affect your body, performance, and ability to function. Being a woman doesn't weigh any of the same issues.
I don't think there's a single person on this forum who thinks that this is the right decision and thinks gays and women should be outlawed from the military.

If anyone thinks this is discrimination, you need to read a book and get off Tumblr.

I was a military kid growing up and had my father tell me all these horror stories of when he was overseas. A soldier who was depressed who took his head clean off because he couldn't deal with the mental stress that was entailed with deployment. Stories of people walking off because they didn't have it in them to kill themselves so they went AWOL to have their body turn up however long later.

As Cupcake. said, the transgender population has statistics that range on the highest for mental disabilities - Depression, anxiety, dysphoria, etc. Straight up, if the transgender community can't handle people not addressing them with proper pronouns without having a meltdown, how can they be expected to be handle and function properly with artillery being fired at them.

Like c'mon. Don't try to make this about discrimination and ask about thoughts on women and gays serving too. There was a point where I was going to try and join up because I felt like I had no other options. Guess what, I was turned away for multiple health reasons. None of which ever crossed my mind as discrimination. Sure, I'm not trying to change genders or classify myself as another gender, but regardless.

tl;dr

The army doesn't need to cover all the medical fees. People in transition CAN'T miss their hormones and any other medications that they need to take. If your overseas in a warzone, guess what? There's a good chance of that happening. The government doesn't have to coddle people to hold statutes above "discrimination" because a few people are crying out discrimination. If you can't function enough to properly ensure that you can save the life of the people around you, then you shouldn't be permitted. Plain and simple.

I'm not in the army, but I've been around it for 20 years of my life.
I'm not transphobic, nor am I transgender.

This is the right decision.

Debate me on it if you want.
But if you do, don't just ask me questions about if I'm "discriminatory" towards other people being in the army.
That's just dumb.

[Trump 2016]

I bet people who live in bubbles will go "Oh he's not defending LGBTQKLTEMTMQOMTWOEMTQWOETWTWETWEDSFMDSOMFWIOEMR(F MWD(MFD(SMF(DSNF(SD rights" while not realizing that having a ready-to-kill lethal-at-all-times unit (which doesn't mushroom when the endocrine systems of all the members of a unit are questionable goods) makes for a freer country meaning more guaranteed rights for LGBTQKLTEMTMQOMTWOEMTQWOETWTWETWEDSFMDSOMFWIOEMR(F MWD(MFD(SMF(DSNF(SD people and fewer international domestic threats to them. Meanwhile, lefties would gladly weaken the military and import people who would be glad to throw LGBTQKLTEMTMQOMTWOEMTQWOETWTWETWEDSFMDSOMFWIOEMR(F MWD(MFD(SMF(DSNF(SD people off rooftops.

Just because the offer to serve is honorable doesn't mean you'd be able to serve more than being a liability. And judging by how LGBTQKLTEMTMQOMTWOEMTQWOETWTWETWEDSFMDSOMFWIOEMR(F MWD(MFD(SMF(DSNF(SD activists handle issues they supposedly care about, most would just want the right to serve as a political megaphone anyway before taking activism into another social institution pointlessly and ruining that too such as having men competing against women in combat spor-- oh that's right that happened already!

[Synth Salazzle]

I'm going to weigh in here since it personally affects me and my unit readiness. One post, that is all. I will not be replying or rebutting anything. I always get in trouble on these posts.

This is a good thing.
Up until a few years ago, transgenderism was a mental disorder. Not sure on the current status, but it is just that. It's your brain, not functioning cohesively with your body. It's a work hazard for everyone involved.

There is no such thing as "non-deployable". Either you're able to deploy, or you aren't. Pregnant women, medical injuries, psychological damage: all of it is pretty much ok short term because it doesn't affect long-term unit readiness for deployments. People are medically discharged all the time if they're deemed unfit for a period of time. Now take a transgendered person who requires medicine to keep their hormones in balance, has a 50% suicide rate, anxiety, disphoria, hormones imbalances, etc and tell me that's not going to impact a unit's ability to get boots off ground?

Now, say we are all deployed, the transgender person has fully transitioned, is mentally stable, passed all tests, and a supply line has been interrupted, the medic has run out of whatever hormones are required to maintain this person's body, and it'll be a while before another bag of pills comes in? It's a lot of "what ifs", but for the sake of a Soldier's life, I think hurting a few feelings is just necessary collateral damage. We aren't a social experiment. Joining the military isn't a right and since, up until a few years ago when PC culture took over, being transgendered was a mental illness, they don't fall under "discrimination" for a physically demanding job that can get people killed.
We disqualify people for asthma, eating disorders, long-term depression, blood disorders, EVERY physical handicap under the sun... why should this be any different? It screws with unit cohesion and the raw numbers for a unit to deploy. Especially since the government was supposed to foot the bill. How useful is someone to me if they're in and out of surgery, therapy, and recovery instead of being there for training? Feelings don't mean shit. Sorry guys, I know a couple hundred might be affected, but they're a bigger pain in the ass than they're worth to the military.

Love it or hate it... it was the right decision.

You know, honestly. I didn't think there could be a positive reason for this decision until I read this post.

When you're out in combat you need to be mentally stable. And if you can't get your hormones while transitioning, you detransition. And that's going to cause people to be unstable. You can't have ready access to your medications when you're out fighting. And that's what hormonal treatment is. It's a medication. It's the same reason I couldn't enlist because of my anxiety. (Ignoring the fact that I'm also transgender but I wasn't really out of the closet at the time so it wasn't relevant to that decision.)

I can't entirely disagree with this anymore.

And the person comparing gays and women to this? It's not the same thing. Like, at all. Not even the same ballpark buddy.

[Sugar Rush]

Being transgender is not dependent upon medical procedures; some trans people cannot or will not take those steps. Does this ban take this into consideration? Given that Trump has a track record of meaning exactly what he says quite literally, despite denials of people speaking on his behalf, this blanket ban is absolutely discriminatory.

And it's not even the point. We can debate all day, but I highly doubt that this was a thought out decision based on the merits of right or wrongness. House GOP in-fighting over one issue--banning sex reassignment operations (NOT banning transgenders altogether, by the way)--was threatening to derail a big spending bill... a bill that involved a bunch of Trump's campaign promises like funding border wall construction.

So basically it was like "help us resolve this splinter" and the response was cutting off the whole hand.

But have fun getting all worked up over divisive social issues that are used at will primarily for political expediency and have surprisingly little to do with morals or truth. I read plenty of books, and this has been the case since the concept of politics and lawmaking came into existence. I'm out.

Edit: And I have to disagree--I believe it is in the same ballpark. Look at the facts, history, and reasons given. Aside from the financial burden non-crisis, Sarah Huckabee Sanders says "This was about military readiness, this is about unit cohesion.". Guess what, unit cohesion is also a cited reason in the debate regarding gays and women in the military, and is still debated to this day. And should be. Carefully. With facts, evidence, reality. Not with a drive-by tweet in a knee-jerk attempt to pass legislation loaded with other unrelated concerns.

[Tarot]

So for those of you who feel this is the right decision, how do you feel about homosexuals or women serving in the miltary? I think it's relevant because a lot of the arguments being said regarding transgender people have also been said about them. Homosexuals also have a higher suicide rate. Women were also thought unfit to serve due to regular hormonal changes. I mean, what a mess that would be. Just saying.

These comparisons you're trying to make don't actually work. From what I understand, this is based on health, not being discriminatory. Unfortunately because it's towards a minority, it's automatically considered discrimination. However, transgender people or those who identify as such and are on hormones are 100% dependant on those hormones to be the gender they identify with, and the risk of being unable to access these medications is high. Without the medications they are, technically, unstable and therefore unsafe. This is not the same situation with homosexuals, nor with women. If anyone from these 2 groups were dependant on medication, they would also be denied.
On another note, as unfortunate as it is, I believe that gender dysphoria is still considered a mental illness in the eyes of the government (someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong). So alongside the argument of being dependant on the hormone medication, they are considered to be mentally ill, and like someone who is otherwise in perfect health but is clinically depressed, suffers from anxiety, bipolar disorder, an eating disorder, etc, they would be denied.
Is it completely fair? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Is it discrimination? No, not necessarily, because if they hadn't announced it as they did, and perhaps announced instead that they were tightening up on military entry requirements, this discussion would probably never have happened.

[Mophead]

Edit: And I have to disagree--I believe it is in the same ballpark. Look at the facts, history, and reasons given. Aside from the financial burden non-crisis, Sarah Huckabee Sanders says "This was about military readiness, this is about unit cohesion.". Guess what, unit cohesion is also a cited reason in the debate regarding gays and women in the military, and is still debated to this day. And should be. Carefully. With facts, evidence, reality. Not with a drive-by tweet in a knee-jerk attempt to pass legislation loaded with other unrelated concerns.

I don't know if you're refusing to read specific things revolving around the actual reason or not.

Gays and women: Do not need medication to stay functioning the same way anyone who is transgender does.

Transgender people: Need medication to maintain the proper balance in their body to function properly unlike nontransgender people.

Also, just throwing it out there since you bring up points about Trump himself. He didn't bring this up, Obama did. And under the advisory of top military personal and whoever else, the decision was to not allow them.
Hate him or love him, Trump didn't make the decision. He just announced it.

[Tarot]

Being transgender is not dependent upon medical procedures; some trans people cannot or will not take those steps. Does this ban take this into consideration? Given that Trump has a track record of meaning exactly what he says quite literally, despite denials of people speaking on his behalf, this blanket ban is absolutely discriminatory.

And it's not even the point. We can debate all day, but I highly doubt that this was a thought out decision based on the merits of right or wrongness. House GOP in-fighting over one issue--banning sex reassignment operations (NOT banning transgenders altogether, by the way)--was threatening to derail a big spending bill... a bill that involved a bunch of Trump's campaign promises like funding border wall construction.

So basically it was like "help us resolve this splinter" and the response was cutting off the whole hand.

But have fun getting all worked up over divisive social issues that are used at will primarily for political expediency and have surprisingly little to do with morals or truth. I read plenty of books, and this has been the case since the concept of politics and lawmaking came into existence. I'm out.

Edit: And I have to disagree--I believe it is in the same ballpark. Look at the facts, history, and reasons given. Aside from the financial burden non-crisis, Sarah Huckabee Sanders says "This was about military readiness, this is about unit cohesion.". Guess what, unit cohesion is also a cited reason in the debate regarding gays and women in the military, and is still debated to this day. And should be. Carefully. With facts, evidence, reality. Not with a drive-by tweet in a knee-jerk attempt to pass legislation loaded with other unrelated concerns.

I almost didn't read your post and still go on to reply to it like you seem to be doing to us...but I like to read and understand before replying.
This isn't even completely about Trump. Obama started this. Remember him, the fan favourite? He started this, Trump finished. I'll repeat my point again, but it's the same for people who are medicated, or are considered mentally ill in the eyes of the GOVERNMENT not by SOCIETY. They are denied because it is unsafe for them, and/or for others.
None of this is a matter of "I don't like this select group because you're different" it's "you wish to serve your country, but you might die. You need to have the ability to cope with this, but if your mind is too preoccupied with how you have different parts than you believe you should have been born with, you are incapable." Similar to how if I went to apply with my anxiety disorder, and instead of "you're a woman and therefore unable" it's "your mind isn't 100% healthy because you can barely function in loud, crowded spaces, so therefore you are not fit for a position in which you will endure loud, fast combat and very likely be injured or killed."
But it's Trump and the wall for sure

[kimmy1989]

I think he got bored and spat his dummy again again and hadn't said anything stupid for a few hours so needed to do this to remind people he's still there and can still do stupid crap if he wants to because he wants to

[Mindfang]

That depends on a few things then, like how disruptive is it to take hormones? How often do they need to do it? Can they afford not taking them for weeks to months if they're deployed and the military can't/won't provide them? Will the meds be taking up space that could be used for something more useful?
By fully transitioning I didn't mean they HAVE to have the surgery, but IF they had the surgery to make sure they don't have to do extra tasks that can be a nuisance if they're deployed (like the dilating part for MTF), I think what they have between their legs are of little use if what matters is if they're capable of doing their job. I know very little about the meds trans people have to take so I'm not sure if I'm talking crap and I apologize if I am cause my knowledge about this group of people is teeny-tiny.

I'm not entirely sure how it works for the military, but gender dysphoria here is considered a mental illness which immediately disqualifies someone from enlisting, I also heard that some medications they take may cause mood swings and other side effects that are a no-no if someone is serving but I don't know if it's true, just thought I'd throw this in here if someone knows more about it.
And if I think a little deeper it doesn't matter what the person identifies as, if they're FTM and are at a disadvantage physically they won't be given a free pass because that just wouldn't be very fair, as long as they can perform their tasks successfully and the military won't have any extra trouble with them then I believe they're free to serve! There's just a lot to consider beforehand.

i suppose this goes to you and everyone talking about dysphoria etc.

hormones arent that much of an issue. you can go months/weeks without them and wont face any adverse affects. i cant speak for oestrogen, but i can speak for testosterone injections and say that, at most, you get a sore ass for a few days after the injection. will that stop a trained soldier from working? not at all. will going off hormones be a bit unpleasant? yes, definitely. will it completely incapacitate that trained soldier so that theyre whining about dysphoria and unable to function due to the oppressive depression? fuck no.

and thats the thing about all of this: trans people arent miserable all the time. do you really think a trans person would sign up for the military if they knew they werent 100% capable due to their dysphoria? and besides: the dysphoria usually comes with being unable to transition, be it due to lack of funds, dangerous home life, being too young, stuff like that. usually thats what brings about the depression. if a trans person has access to these things, youll find their risk of suicide and depression becomes non existent.

and for the record, theres barely any trans people that are completely incapacitated by their dysphoria to the point where they cannot work. you see the thing about being unable to work as a trans person, is the discrimination. being unable to transition, feeling dysphoric, being depressed, it usually all comes around due to the current state of trans issues in the world, and the fact that theyre discriminated against. and also this idea that were all so delicate and cry uncle at the slightest sign of oppression: are you serious? why is it, then, that cis people are constantly so quick to tell us how brave we are for transitioning? are we only brave on your terms? is our strength really not that impressive to you at all despite your words then? are we strong and brave or arent we? and if we are, isnt that what being in the military is all about?

transitioning is a big deal for trans people, but it isnt as big a deal as its being made out to be here. it wont kill you, it wont make you unable to work. even the dilating is simple! you can do that in the bathroom before or after you go pee in the morning! you can give yourself injections-- and theres more than just injections when it comes to hormone intake. you can get a gel that you rub into your skin if youre a trans man, or you can take a pill if youre a trans woman. another thing you can do in the morning that takes maybe 2 minutes.

[Stocking Anarchy]

I understand where Sugar Rush is coming from when they reference gays and women. It wasn't too long ago in human history that being gay was also considered a Mental Illness. In 1987 homosexuality was removed from the DSM as a classified mental disorder. The World Health Organization removed homosexuality as a classified mental health disorder in 1992.

To this day there is a type of mental health disorder that relates to homosexuality called ego-dystonic sexual orientation.

lazy so just gonna copy and paste from wikipedia

When the WHO removed the diagnosis of homosexuality as a mental disorder in ICD-10, it included the diagnosis of ego-dystonic sexual orientation under "Psychological and behavioural disorders associated with sexual development and orientation". The WHO's ICD-10 diagnoses ego-dystonic sexual orientation thus:

The gender identity or sexual preference (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or prepubertal) is not in doubt, but the individual wishes it were different because of associated psychological and behavioural disorders, and may seek treatment in order to change it. (F66.1)

The WHO notes that for codes under F66: "Sexual orientation by itself is not to be regarded as a disorder."[1]

Patients are sometimes still diagnosed as having this problem.[7] This is often a result of unfavorable and intolerant attitudes of the society or a conflict between sexual urges and religious belief systems.


While the World Health Organization does have Gender dysphoria currently defined as a mental health disorder, a new "International Classification of Diseases" book is slated to be published in 2018 and there is a high chance that "being transgender" will no longer be considered a mental illness. So far the proposal to remove it has passed every committee.

Studies suggest that mental health issues transgender people have has nothing to do with the fact they are transgender, but by how society treats them. Well if I was rejected by just about everyone around me, including parents, schoolmates, church members, etc, then yea I would probably have anxiety and be suicidal as well.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


I think banning all transgender people from the military is bullshit. So does my mom and dad who are both veterans of Vietnam.

If anyone is willing to give their life in service to their country then they should be able to, I don't care what their orientation is.

We are going to deny transgender U.S. citizens the right to serve our country yet allow foreigners serve as a pathway to citizenship?

Argument: Transgender people should be banned because of the increase of health care costs.

Lets assume we are only talking about the hormones they take after gender reassignment. You want to tell me that its ok to pay for birth control (a hormone therapy) for women, but not hormones for transgenders? And its not like a transgender person misses one pill and they are going to go off the deep end. Does that happen to women?

Thomas Beatie is a FTM transgender man that stopped taking his hormones in order to give birth to a baby because his wife could not have children. Yes coming off hormones causes some anxiety and depression, but who in life does not cope with anxiety and depression every day? Shit when women are on their period they cope with anxiety and depression. But they can serve.


People are talking like transgender people are these fragile little glass figurines that will shatter at the first hit. You think the military won't winnow out the frail ones in boot camp? You'd think by surviving to adulthood without committing suicide and still be willing to fight for all freedoms (even the ones that allow others to hate them) would show that they have inner strength.

As for gender reassignment surgery, its not as if any transgender person can join the military and get free surgery. There are protocols and a doctor has to deem it medically necessary before Tri-care will pay for it. You think Doctors are just going to be writing out those recommendations willy nilly? (pun intended). Taxpayers pay more money for Viagra prescriptions than any kind of transgender related healthcare services.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Oh and sorry folks you've already been working among transgender military members.

So just because the ban comes up all of a sudden all these problems that didn't exist before are going to happen if the ban doesn't go through? No wait, they are already happening?

Just like when they tried to keep transgenders from using certain restrooms. Like HELLO!!! they were already using whatever hell restroom they wanted to.


People should be allowed into the military on a case by case basis, that what recruiting, boot camp, mental and physical assessments do. We should not arbitrarily ban a group of people based on any sort of generalization.

Race, Women, Sexual Orientation, Transgender. Those are the groups of people that have been discriminated against in the military.

And like I said, the mental health argument for sexual dymorphism doesn't fly because it is a bullshit diagnosis that is going to be removed in 2018.

Just like women suffering from "hysteria" was a bullshit diagnosis that got removed.

Just like homosexuality being a mental health disorder was a bullshit diagnosis that got removed.


Transgenders in the military isn't something new, it isn't something that is causing a problem in military units, and it isn't costing a shit ton of money on the medical bills.

[I_royalty_I]

i suppose this goes to you and everyone talking about dysphoria etc.

hormones arent that much of an issue. you can go months/weeks without them and wont face any adverse affects. i cant speak for oestrogen, but i can speak for testosterone injections and say that, at most, you get a sore ass for a few days after the injection. will that stop a trained soldier from working? not at all. will going off hormones be a bit unpleasant? yes, definitely. will it completely incapacitate that trained soldier so that theyre whining about dysphoria and unable to function due to the oppressive depression? fuck no.

and thats the thing about all of this: trans people arent miserable all the time. do you really think a trans person would sign up for the military if they knew they werent 100% capable due to their dysphoria? and besides: the dysphoria usually comes with being unable to transition, be it due to lack of funds, dangerous home life, being too young, stuff like that. usually thats what brings about the depression. if a trans person has access to these things, youll find their risk of suicide and depression becomes non existent.

and for the record, theres barely any trans people that are completely incapacitated by their dysphoria to the point where they cannot work. you see the thing about being unable to work as a trans person, is the discrimination. being unable to transition, feeling dysphoric, being depressed, it usually all comes around due to the current state of trans issues in the world, and the fact that theyre discriminated against. and also this idea that were all so delicate and cry uncle at the slightest sign of oppression: are you serious? why is it, then, that cis people are constantly so quick to tell us how brave we are for transitioning? are we only brave on your terms? is our strength really not that impressive to you at all despite your words then? are we strong and brave or arent we? and if we are, isnt that what being in the military is all about?

transitioning is a big deal for trans people, but it isnt as big a deal as its being made out to be here. it wont kill you, it wont make you unable to work. even the dilating is simple! you can do that in the bathroom before or after you go pee in the morning! you can give yourself injections-- and theres more than just injections when it comes to hormone intake. you can get a gel that you rub into your skin if youre a trans man, or you can take a pill if youre a trans woman. another thing you can do in the morning that takes maybe 2 minutes.

You mention those things happen partly due to being unable to properly transition. Under Obama, the pentagon was required to pay for these expenses. I'm sure there are folks who signed up simply to reap this benefit because we all know anything having to do with health care can be very pricey. I'm sure that's not the case for all though.

There are other issues to worry about too. The harshness of war leads soldiers to see some pretty insane things. Even the strongest, toughest folks can crack. They might seem fine one minute, then break down the next. That's the reality though. If you're already feeling that way, perhaps stepping into a battle zone wouldn't be the best. There were statistics put out that I read, before all this, where if one member of your group commits suicide, the chances of another from the same group go up quite a bit. War is just nasty. Having somebody already prone to those kinds of thoughts can be dangerous. That's why they already reject people who fall into that kind of category.

The one thing I will say is that not all roles involve being on the battlefield. Some roles put you behind a screen or researching this or that. For those I'm sure exceptions could be made. The only issue is that once one exception is made, somebody will always want another to be made. It's just a lot to consider and I feel like this decision was kind of sprung on everyone. Even the heads of the military branches were said to be surprised. That's coming from CNN so who honestly knows lol.

[Stocking Anarchy]

You mention those things happen partly due to being unable to properly transition. Under Obama, the pentagon was required to pay for these expenses. I'm sure there are folks who signed up simply to reap this benefit because we all know anything having to do with health care can be very pricey. I'm sure that's not the case for all though.

I wonder since when was it looked down upon to sign up to the military for the benefits? I mean you are signing your body and years of your life away to the U.S. government.


Pretty sure that is how the recruitment officers get you in.

Sign up and get free tuition, get your college loans pardoned, get free medical and if you are hurt in combat or killed we will take care of you/your family.

Next people are going to say they don't want their tax dollars paying for military members to get college degrees, they already have a job in the military right? What do they need to get a different degree for?

[Mindfang]

i just think, since people put a lot of stock into the whole military thing, that they should be happy to be supplying them with healthcare? theyre off fighting for your country after all, why not give them the bare minimum of care?

[haiqtpi]

If viagra is covered for veterans, whatever transgender service members require should be supplied. We are talking about such a small portion of the population, the cost is irrelevant. The reasoning given by the white house is idiotic--not only have congressional hearings suggested otherwise, but the countries allowing open transgender service members have as well. If the fucking Israeli armed forced allows this, then there is no reason for us not to. These people are in a constant state of warfare, if it hasn't fucked their shit up, I think that we will be JUUUUUSST fine--consider it tested and passed. This is about marginalizing, and the thing is, we as a country need to stick together and have everyone's back. The erosion of rights for even the smallest minority is very dangerous, for the rest of us, because we are all minorities in some sense of the word.

Also, Tarot: "However, transgender people or those who identify as such and are on hormones are 100% dependant on those hormones to be the gender they identify with, and the risk of being unable to access these medications is high."

This is incorrect on a few levels. They do not require hormones to be the gender that they identify with--they ARE that gender, and are simply looking for physical characteristics, partially in an attempt to seek more acceptance from society because they think that physical qualities define gender--idiotic if you ask me--if Angelina Jolie has her breasts removed, is she still a woman? What about males born without penises, or with deformities?

With regards to your statement regarding access to medication--if other countries have not seen big issues with this, then I think that we are fine. I once again point to the Israeli armed forces.

[Tarot]

If viagra is covered for veterans, whatever transgender service members require should be supplied. We are talking about such a small portion of the population, the cost is irrelevant. The reasoning given by the white house is idiotic--not only have congressional hearings suggested otherwise, but the countries allowing open transgender service members have as well. If the fucking Israeli armed forced allows this, then there is no reason for us not to. These people are in a constant state of warfare, if it hasn't fucked their shit up, I think that we will be JUUUUUSST fine--consider it tested and passed. This is about marginalizing, and the thing is, we as a country need to stick together and have everyone's back. The erosion of rights for even the smallest minority is very dangerous, for the rest of us, because we are all minorities in some sense of the word.

Also, Tarot: "However, transgender people or those who identify as such and are on hormones are 100% dependant on those hormones to be the gender they identify with, and the risk of being unable to access these medications is high."

This is incorrect on a few levels. They do not require hormones to be the gender that they identify with--they ARE that gender, and are simply looking for physical characteristics, partially in an attempt to seek more acceptance from society because they think that physical qualities define gender--idiotic if you ask me--if Angelina Jolie has her breasts removed, is she still a woman? What about males born without penises, or with deformities?

With regards to your statement regarding access to medication--if other countries have not seen big issues with this, then I think that we are fine. I once again point to the Israeli armed forces.

I was actually talking about those who DO take hormones, which is what I said in the bit you quoted if you actually read it.. and it's none of this is about society, or people without breasts, penises, and deformities. Someone dependant on medication no matter what the medication is for may not be able to access that medication when deployed in the middle of buttfuck nowhere which is, unfortunately, a problem for everyone. I'm aware why they take medication.

And for the last bit, I'm not even American. So whoever Trump allows or doesn't allow into his military doesn't matter to me, because Trudeau leads my country, and therefore I'm not part of the "we" you speak of. But thanks.

[haiqtpi]

I was actually talking about those who DO take hormones, which is what I said in the bit you quoted if you actually read it.. and it's none of this is about society, or people without breasts, penises, and deformities. Someone dependant on medication no matter what the medication is for may not be able to access that medication when deployed in the middle of buttfuck nowhere which is, unfortunately, a problem for everyone. I'm aware why they take medication.

And for the last bit, I'm not even American. So whoever Trump allows or doesn't allow into his military doesn't matter to me, because Trudeau leads my country, and therefore I'm not part of the "we" you speak of. But thanks.

LOL Your attempt to engage in a logic spar with me will leave your pride sorely bruised. The fact that one takes medication is no reason to exclude them from military service...and while I see no reason to further entertain that argument, I will merely point out that this medication is not life or death for said soldiers...so what exactly IS your point about their consumption of hormones?

Your whole snark/attack on my use of the word "we" is nonsense (at best), and you know it (though the weakness of your argument makes it clear that you are merely grasping at straws, and that is ok--no need to do that, we are all friends here :)). It was merely a pluralism of myself and fellow countrymen (since that is what the thread is about...), so I am baffled why you would even try to make this about me speaking for you as an individual lul

[Meowlily]

I personally think it's wrong, I think if you want risk your life for our country props to you. Doesn't matter that you are transgender.

[Tarot]

LOL Your attempt to engage in a logic spar with me will leave your pride sorely bruised. The fact that one takes medication is no reason to exclude them from military service...and while I see no reason to further entertain that argument, I will merely point out that this medication is not life or death for said soldiers...so what exactly IS your point about their consumption of hormones?

Your whole snark/attack on my use of the word "we" is nonsense (at best), and you know it (though the weakness of your argument makes it clear that you are merely grasping at straws, and that is ok--no need to do that, we are all friends here :)). It was merely a pluralism of myself and fellow countrymen (since that is what the thread is about...), so I am baffled why you would even try to make this about me speaking for you as an individual lul

I wasn't making it about me as an individual...I was only saying I just don't apply to the "countrymen" you speak of. I'm not grasping at straws either..just my opinion, like your "logic" (if it is that, seems to be rather emotionally based - that doesn't scream logic to me) is your opinion.

And before I go as I've lost interest on this topic days before, you would never bruise my pride sweetheart. I have a little more self respect than that. I hope you have a great day ��