Constitutional Carry

[Misha]

I'd prefer if only Americans chimed in on the pros and cons of not requiring a permit for legal gun owners to carry a pistol, but I'm not going to judge anyone for stating their opinion obviously lol. Anyway, there's been quite a bit of law changes lately as far as gun laws go; and personally find it to be a questionable idea. I am pro guns, as most people know, but there is definitely a lot of training I do regularly to ensure the safety of those around me in the face of an imminent threat. I think permitless carry is awesome, but I also think there should be a requirement for a series of classes on the law, when it is legal to draw from your holster, and the very little times it is okay to pull the trigger. Obviously, nobody should ever be put in a situation where they need to take a life to defend their own, but America is getting crazier by the second.

Just my thoughts. What do you think?

*This is not a debate about if guns are good or bad, just strictly about a constitutional "right". Please refrain from insults.

**Mods, if this is not allowed or in the wrong section, please advise.

[Urbex]

I guess I'll be the first to chime in here.

I'm pro-gun, but I'm also anti-gun in some respects. Go ahead, grab a pistol, sure. But no, you don't need a semi-automatic high-capacity assault rifle.
Permits? Yes, they should be required. I think there should be even stricter regulations about who can carry, but at the same time, I wish more responsible people would carry. If you want to carry a weapon, I don't see any valid reasons as to why you can't get a permit or attend some classes. Just my two cents though.

[champloo]

I guess I'll be the first to chime in here.

I'm pro-gun, but I'm also anti-gun in some respects. Go ahead, grab a pistol, sure. But no, you don't need a semi-automatic high-capacity assault rifle.
Permits? Yes, they should be required. I think there should be even stricter regulations about who can carry, but at the same time, I wish more responsible people would carry. If you want to carry a weapon, I don't see any valid reasons as to why you can't get a permit or attend some classes. Just my two cents though.

Can't say I agree with your sentiment on rifles. Plenty of home burglaries, for example, occur with more than one acting offender. A homeowner with a handgun isn't going to win out against three thieves with handguns, which is where the AR-15 becomes the big equalizer. This isn't taking into account stuff like hunting either.

I think my fifth post on these forums being politically-charged is probably a bad omen, but I'll say outright I believe pretty firmly in the second amendment. I especially don't agree with most regulatory laws since so many are based on "this gun looks scary."

[RGBKittens]

Not knocking down anyways opinions but I'm totally against guns. The only reason you'd need a gun is to protect yourself from other guns. Definitely against being able to carry a gun in public at all. I guess if your intent is to protect and you're completely sane, problem is there's a lot of crazy people out there lol

[Misha]

Not knocking down anyways opinions but I'm totally against guns. The only reason you'd need a gun is to protect yourself from other guns. Definitely against being able to carry a gun in public at all. I guess if your intent is to protect and you're completely sane, problem is there's a lot of crazy people out there lol

This is the sole reason I carry a pistol every day. If I have to take the life of a criminal with a gun who may cause harm to an innocent citizen, I will. I'm also aware I could get killed every time I carry, but, I'd rather have the chance of being able to save someone than not

[Stocking Anarchy]

Can't say I agree with your sentiment on rifles. Plenty of home burglaries, for example, occur with more than one acting offender. A homeowner with a handgun isn't going to win out against three thieves with handguns, which is where the AR-15 becomes the big equalizer. This isn't taking into account stuff like hunting either.

I think my fifth post on these forums being politically-charged is probably a bad omen, but I'll say outright I believe pretty firmly in the second amendment. I especially don't agree with most regulatory laws since so many are based on "this gun looks scary."

I don't see a problem with having a high powered rifle in your home, or secured in your car on the way to the shooting range. I don't think its necessary to be publicly carrying a rifle around.

Honestly I think the open-carry law should be changed to allow people to conceal carry. It is legal to carry a gun as long as it is open carry here in OR but you need a permit for concealed. People freak out when they see a gun though. They get put on high alert and on edge. We recently had a guy open carry at a restaurant I was eating dinner at with my dad. Even though he played it cool, I could tell the fact that the guy was carrying a gun was messing with his PTSD (he is a Vietnam veteran).

Honestly I think roles should be reversed. People without permits should conceal carry, and people with permits open carry. This way if you do see someone openly carrying a gun then you know for sure that they did get a permit, have taken a class, know how to use it, etc. Plus I'd rather have someone trained be able to do a quick draw than an untrained person. Maybe I am naive though.

Then again if everyone had a permit that would be better.


Honestly I think if we actually had a good universal free health care then it would help to alleviate the problem with mass shootings at least. With universal health care then everyone could afford mental health care treatment. We could nip some of these problems in the bud before they become an issue.


If a family has a child with chronic depression, autism, BPD, or some other anxiety or social disorder whose symptoms include impulse control or tendency towards violence, then those families can immediately afford the support they need. They can be educated on how to care for their children, find out the signs of anxiety, and possibly head off anything before it turns into a tragedy. Same thing with adults. Most of the mass shootings occur because the shooters have untreated mental illnesses.

All of these laws and limitations are made in reaction to tragic events that happen. Instead of reacting to things after the fact, people need to be proactive and try to eliminate the causes. Getting rid of guns is still just reacting. If guns are gone, people with these issues will find other ways to commit these crimes. It's pretty easy to go online and find out how to build a bomb. Guns are just cooler and let you be in the middle of the action.

[Sci_Girl]

All of these laws and limitations are made in reaction to tragic events that happen. Instead of reacting to things after the fact, people need to be proactive and try to eliminate the causes. Getting rid of guns is still just reacting. If guns are gone, people with these issues will find other ways to commit these crimes. It's pretty easy to go online and find out how to build a bomb. Guns are just cooler and let you be in the middle of the action

If you want a solution to rid of the problem causing individuals it would be to begin teaching young ones now that violence is unacceptable. That crime is unacceptable. Drug use, alcoholism, greed, anger, and revenge are unacceptable. You want to stop it before it begins? It starts with teaching youth now so we can actually have less crime. Until that happens those in America will still be scared to grocery shop without a piece on them incase they need to play superhero.

[Misha]

If you want a solution to rid of the problem causing individuals it would be to begin teaching young ones now that violence is unacceptable. That crime is unacceptable. Drug use, alcoholism, greed, anger, and revenge are unacceptable. You want to stop it before it begins? It starts with teaching youth now so we can actually have less crime. Until that happens those in America will still be scared to grocery shop without a piece on them incase they need to play superhero.

I completely agree, other than the "play superhero" stab. I'm not out to be a hero, I don't EVER want to be put in a situation where I'm forced to draw my firearm (which I conceal carry although Minnesota is also an open carry state), but I will if it means stopping someone from killing an innocent person. Personally, I believe that having firearms safety in a school curriculum is a great idea. It ight me to respect firearms and never touch them unless I was hunting or needed to protect our home, when I was young. There will ALWAYS be criminals who wish to cause harm to innocent people, and as sad as it sounds, some parents don't give a shit about teaching their children right from wrong. Our whole country is in the crapper, but there isn't "more" shootings now than there were 20 years ago; just more coverage by the media.

So, if there are as many people out there as possible with my mind set when it comes to being a gun owner, it would help alleviate the problems. "Gun Free" zones create a target because of the criminal knowing it is illegal for a law abiding citizen to have their gun in that business/school/etc.

[Ape]

I am Pro-gun, but for numerous reasons. I conceal carry every day for not only my protection but my family and fiends as well. The argument that you only need guns against other guns urks me too because knives are very dangerous weapons and if someone is within 10ft of you they can get you in about 2 secs depending on how fast the person is. I believe that if your life is in danger you should be able to use a gun.I also support having semi-automatic rifles as well. I know many people who hunt with them and like mentioned before they are great for when there are multiple threats. I also do not believe in giving full control to the government which banning guns would essentially do. That is like saying our government is perfect and there is no possible way it can corrupt.

[Misha]

I am Pro-gun, but for numerous reasons. I conceal carry every day for not only my protection but my family and fiends as well. The argument that you only need guns against other guns urks me too because knives are very dangerous weapons and if someone is within 10ft of you they can get you in about 2 secs depending on how fast the person is. I believe that if your life is in danger you should be able to use a gun.I also support having semi-automatic rifles as well. I know many people who hunt with them and like mentioned before they are great for when there are multiple threats. I also do not believe in giving full control to the government which banning guns would essentially do. That is like saying our government is perfect and there is no possible way it can corrupt.

100% agreed

[eCosS]

If you are for gun control, then you are not against guns, because the guns will be needed to disarm people. So it’s not that you are anti-gun. You’ll need the police’s guns to take away other people’s guns. So you’re very Pro-Gun, you just believe that only the Government (which is, of course, so reliable, honest, moral and virtuous…) should be allowed to have guns. There is no such thing as gun control. There is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small, political elite and their minions.

[Hawk]

I'm for legal gun ownership; I have been personally looking into a small pistol for my own protection and in Wisconsin legal ownership allows you to open carry (unless in a vehicle which all weapons are required to be concealed to avoid unnecessary assumed threat to officers on traffic stops) and you have to apply for gun ownership either with the state before picking up your weapon or at the store where they will put your application in during the buy process and can take anywhere from 15-30 minutes to be approved or denied. You will rarely be denied unless you are convicted felon or if you have multiple counts of DUI.

Conceal carry is relatively new here and requires a course on gun safety, which makes sense concealed weapons are more difficult to draw leading to more accidents. Your average gun owner will not encounter these issues should they be wearing an open holster for their weapon.

The bylaws of wisconsin allow businesses to disallow open carry and conceal carry tho many just disallow open as it's too difficult to enforce it on conceal unless you have an active metal detector and guard. I know this because I do currently carry a knife with me at all times, and nearly had it confiscated when I forgot we were going a theater with active security details. (this of course doesn't apply to officers of the law.)

But that's all just a lot of guff, and the TL;DR is that statistics show that the amount of violent crime is down, inverse to gun ownership increasing. That means that stats essentially prove a lot of gun-rhetoric false. You do not get more violent crime when the population is more armed.

In fact a bigger contributing factor to Americas relatively high gun violence is the proportion of Gang Violence and the amount of Gangs we have in the states; People who legally cannot own guns, because most have felony charges.

I live in a shit neighborhood in a shit part of Wisconsin, my wanting a gun has nothing to do with power, or manliness or whatever other stupid idea people have it's down to one thing and one thing only: Gangs exist in this part of my state.

There have been violent crimes in my neighborhood, the gas station up the street was robbed at gun point; the mcdonalds was robbed with a knife.

We have a powered keypad lock on our back door, we have a camera on our front door to see who rings it, we have a home security system that is hooked up to a cell phone so phone lines can't be severed to render it useless. All of this only stops people getting in the doors however. So for the inside we have a handgun my mother keeps at her bed side and I have my knife.

There are a lot of tools to use to protect yourself, but when all else fails there is one potent tool that levels all playing fields and can be the difference between life and death: a gun. Doesn't matter the size, doesn't matter the caliber.

[Misha]

^100% agree with everything you stated. I carry every day, and not because of some false sense of ego or machoness or whatever. I carry because if I can stop an innocent life from being taken in the hands of a criminal, I will do so. I don't EVER want to be in the situation where I need to, but if it comes down to it, I will not hesitate.

I grew up in North Minneapolis. I have been robbed at gunpoint, stabbed, beat up, you name it. I was always a target. Now, as an adult, I refuse to be a target. Period.

[haiqtpi]

I carry because if I can stop an innocent life from being taken in the hands of a criminal, I will do so. I don't EVER want to be in the situation where I need to, but if it comes down to it, I will not hesitate.

Here is my issue with that mentality: it is anecdotal--that is, based on your own experiences, you have formed your own judgments and, more importantly, biases. You have a predetermined frame of mind that you will take into situations, and I think that this is a red flag. As someone who lives in NYC, for example, there are so many people who are injured as innocent bystanders when police engage criminals with their own firearms. While police can always use more training, the fact is that they DO train in these kinds of encounters, and regardless of how many "classes" you take, or however much time you spent in the military, you are not prepared or trained for this kind of encounter. A gun makes it very easy to bypass the whole process of rational thought and analysis of situation. How are you qualified to judge whether or not someone's life is/is not in danger? I pose the same question with your already formed mindset of why you carry a firearm.

In a perfect world, yes, there should not be an issue for wide spread gun use, but that assumes responsibility, and more importantly, self-control. Humans are fucking scary animals, and I think that allowing people to carry weapons which can end a life in an instant, is a fucking horrible decision. I must admit, it makes me so uncomfortable how so many of the "pro-gun" lobby all tend to describe themselves as Chuck Norris, and that anyone who fucks up with guns are simply untrained idiots--this simply is not reasonable, let alone statistically possible. People assault others all the fucking time, and you want to tell me that people should be carrying handguns all willy-nilly? People get drunk, people get high, people get fucking angry. Think about all the shit that humans do to each other without weapons, and then imagine those same people carrying weapons. It is so illogical, and frustration only increases exponentially when I acknowledge that no matter how logical/illogical something is, that guns are so deeply ingrained in the American psyche that they will never go away, much to my dismay.

Edit: I'd also like to point out what happens when we have a tendency to confront with firearms--just check out police shooting statistics.

[Misha]

Here is my issue with that mentality: it is anecdotal--that is, based on your own experiences, you have formed your own judgments and, more importantly, biases. You have a predetermined frame of mind that you will take into situations, and I think that this is a red flag. As someone who lives in NYC, for example, there are so many people who are injured as innocent bystanders when police engage criminals with their own firearms. While police can always use more training, the fact is that they DO train in these kinds of encounters, and regardless of how many "classes" you take, or however much time you spent in the military, you are not prepared or trained for this kind of encounter. A gun makes it very easy to bypass the whole process of rational thought and analysis of situation. How are you qualified to judge whether or not someone's life is/is not in danger? I pose the same question with your already formed mindset of why you carry a firearm.

In a perfect world, yes, there should not be an issue for wide spread gun use, but that assumes responsibility, and more importantly, self-control. Humans are fucking scary animals, and I think that allowing people to carry weapons which can end a life in an instant, is a fucking horrible decision. I must admit, it makes me so uncomfortable how so many of the "pro-gun" lobby all tend to describe themselves as Chuck Norris, and that anyone who fucks up with guns are simply untrained idiots--this simply is not reasonable, let alone statistically possible. People assault others all the fucking time, and you want to tell me that people should be carrying handguns all willy-nilly? People get drunk, people get high, people get fucking angry. Think about all the shit that humans do to each other without weapons, and then imagine those same people carrying weapons. It is so illogical, and frustration only increases exponentially when I acknowledge that no matter how logical/illogical something is, that guns are so deeply ingrained in the American psyche that they will never go away, much to my dismay.

Edit: I'd also like to point out what happens when we have a tendency to confront with firearms--just check out police shooting statistics.

I agree with what you're saying completely. I would never assume someone's life is in danger, nor would I approach an altercation that doesn't involve myself until a deadly weapon presents itself. Even then, I have a duty to retreat in the state of Minnesota as we don't have a "Stand Your Ground" law.

I also don't believe that the 2nd amendment just gives every person the "right" to carry a pistol. I think it would be a terrible idea and more vetting should be in place to ensure that only rational people can carry.

Though, I haven't been in that high-stress situation. You are right though, guns will never go away in America. This has become a scary place, hence why I would like to have every tool I can to defend my life and the lives of others should that situation arise. My firearms will always be the absolute LAST resort to any situation.

[yosup90210]

I'm pro-gun.

In fact, I'm so pro-gun, I think everyone should be legally required to own a gun, know how to safely use, and safely handle a gun. There would probably be way less accidents that involve people accidently shooting someone while mishandling a gun if people knew how to be responsible with one. Guns aren't toys, and people should be responsible when using them. People shouldn't be ignorant about guns just because they don't like guns.

If everyone has a gun, more criminals would be deterred from committing crimes if they know that the person they will commit a crime against has a gun and can defend themselves.

Edit: Also, keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. If people can't be expected to handle guns responsibly, they shouldn't have them.