Neopets Political Discussion #1: Pet Trading

[cinnamon]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This series will seek to spark a rationed and multi-perspective discussion about many of the current rules & functions of the game and how some of these rules & functions affect the user experience and neo-community.
~
Let's think of Neopia as a country and we the players are citizens. As citizens, we take stands on issues as though we are able to vote things into or out of existence on the site because we believe doing so would better our neo quality of life. This is less of a debate and more of a series of questions to explore what the gameplay experience could be if players opinions were heard.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Has TNT's decision to sanction pet trading improved or harmed the neopets community?
Has pet trading affected your personal gaming experience in a positive or negative way?
Poll Question: If it were put to a vote tomorrow, would you vote to allow pet trading to continue or would you vote to abolish it?
Would this vote be different if it were extended to you years ago when pet trading was against the rules?



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Although we are a cheating site, let's please keep the discussion within the realm of the neopets site as a legit player. Why? To provide constraints and keep things in the ideal of improving the neopets community and not necessarily our personal wealth both on and off-site. However, cheating on site can be mentioned in your viewpoint. I think it's okay to say "Pet trading should be allowed because it deters people from having to cheat to achieve their dream pet," what I'm trying to avoid is "Pet trading should be allowed because it helps me make money," the latter is missing the point of these discussions.

Refer to all rules ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in the debate zone.

I will post a poll on each topic thread. Each thread will pose multiple questions to consider during discussion, but the poll will refer to the one specified.

I will begin all topics with these rules and a topic of discussion. I will reserve sharing my viewpoint until a few posts in for obvious reasons.





Notes & other loose ends:

I decided to start this because I like quality discussions and also in the spirit of the current political season in the US. I used to be a bit of a neo-activist years ago for certain viewpoints and community improvement efforts on my old main before TNT iced my ass to Nova Scotia over buying neopoints. Fuckers.
I have a list 4 additional topics of discussion, some more hot button than others. I may run some of these concurrently, or wait for one to die down before posting another. If you have a topic you want to suggest please pm me and I may add it to my list!

[Winona]

On one hand, I think pet trading is great, when it makes everyone involved happy. I made some great trades back in the day, not based on "pet value" at all, and made a lot of my Neofriends that way.

On the other hand... oh, the drama. Drama's fun to watch, but... not worth it, IMO. I would feel better about pet trading if it went back to the way it was a few years ago - i.e., not a massive clusterfuck.

I honestly just came to tell you that that Moehog and Elephante cracked me up, but thought I should probably contribute to the discussion, too. :P

seriously, laughed out loud in the middle of the night. A++++ job on that one

[Suicune]

Pet trading is great if you suck at earning NP, I never thought that I could get a royalgirl lupe (converted) without the help of the pound and the PC chat. Honestly though Trading has also opened a can of worms, UCs happened and became like gold and diamonds and scamming rocketted ~ even i've fell for a scam once or twice and have scammed other people admittingly.

Draik and krawk deflation is what hit trading the most. pets worth 20mil+ suddenly falling below 1 million. Nobody really wants these pets anymore and UCs became harder and harder to get.

Should PC trading still be around ~ Yes
Should UCs still be around ~ Yes
Should JS bring out a UC paint brush or give all pets the option of being UCs ~ No

[potatoespotate]

I feel like the only reason I'm trading is because the pets I want, I can't create on my own. PC is a shit hole and I'd stay far away if I had the choice... I'd rather be able to create UCs on my own, with conditions or something (like on grandfathered pets/accounts), and then if I needed to make friends, I could join a guild or something, or by some miracle, TNT would actually release a plot we could work together to solve so we'd be able to meet new people on the boards.

Maybe I just hate the PC b/c drama, 2 faced people/scammers/kiss asses.

I would love to just be able to create the pets I want like the good old days, then I won't give a fuck even if trading is against the rules, though I'd rather it stay allowed since we can't create the RW/RNs we wanted. I'm not too big on names though, personally, but it'd be nice for people to have a chance at getting "their perfect pet".

[Salivating Slorg]

First of all, Sloth must know what font that is you're using for the graphics. I love it

Second, I don't do pet trading at all. So I don't really care.

The best Neopets are slave Neopets.

19970

[Vis]

Thanks for hosting the discussion :) I look forward to your upcoming threads on other topics.

It might be interesting to see when and why other contributors to this discussion got into pet trading (or if they aren't traders at all), whether or not they are serious or casual traders (or if not, why not), and if the pet trade aspect of the site is one of the main reasons they remain a player. I feel that this background information would show some reasons / connections for the questions that you outlined.

My background: got into pet trading in 2013, mostly seeking names. I only trade names and customs on converteds - I never had any interest in UC or penny trading (which is now so much more difficult than before pet deflation, decreased pool, decreased activity, etc), since it was more convenient for me knowing that I could simply buy. Although I am not a committed or serious trader, PC is one of the boards I check daily and it remains one of the most active ones on a slowly dying site, which says something. It does seem like a huge part of the site and what makes Neopets... Neopets for me, even with my trade history of like 5 per year. If it were to be removed completely starting tomorrow, a death of that part of the site would be as disappointing to me as finding out that Habi and KQ were terminated.

Has TNT's decision to sanction pet trading improved or harmed the neopets community?
In a way, the consequences of allowing pet trading created its own problems, and only solved the problems that only became problems AFTER its creation. Let me explain: some pets were always more difficult or just downright impossible to obtain, but this was never really a problem since there was no solution to it. It sounds backwards, but I really do feel that had there never been support for trading (official green light, safe transfer option, safe exchange option, one of the boards becoming dedicated to trading), wishes would have remained wishes. People would have vaguely wanted a solution, but it would never have been important to the degree that it is now that trading has TNT's support. In this way, the introduction of trade sanction only turned pets into an issue, brought more awareness to how pet value contributed to account value & user identity and pride, and formed the environment to develop documented framework on pet values themselves.
Drama starters would have been drama starters anyway, but pet trading allowed them one more outlet.
However! I do believe that trading has now become one of the backbones of the site. It is an important and integral site feature and, most importantly, it gives people something to aim towards and work on, which keeps them coming back.

Goals are really important for games like neopets - the site is what you make it. If you have no interest or goals, nothing attracts you to come back. With this in mind, I do think that TNT sanctioning trades was beneficial for the growth and retention of the community.

Has pet trading affected your personal gaming experience in a positive or negative way?
Positive, absolutely and hands down. For a casual trader, the PC is a great hobby to pass some time browsing, chatting, keeping tabs on which pets are currently in circulation. I got to know a lot of friends through the PC. When I see the spats every now and then it feels like secondary school, but with me completely detached from it - it doesn't affect me, but I know it's there.

Poll Question: If it were put to a vote tomorrow, would you vote to allow pet trading to continue or would you vote to abolish it?
I feel that it ought to continue since it forms a core part of why some of the most active users still play. With it removed they would riot and, for a site that desperately needs to retain its active userbase, this would be detrimental. Not only because of the initial rage quits (eg. interrupted goals, unattainable goals, a potential sudden influx of SUPER elitism now that some users are now 'untouchable' in pet worth), but also because one of the remaining activity hubs will be obsolete. Look at the Habitarium forum. Habi chat used to be pretty alright for people to gather to get to know & help each other, but now it's a complete graveyard. Why wouldn't it be? Its purpose is now dead. I fear that its knock-on effects could dampen the activity and enthusiasm a lot of players otherwise unaffected by trading (eg. friends leaving, less visible board activity, inevitable drama caused by its abolition).

Would this vote be different if it were extended to you years ago when pet trading was against the rules?
I cannot really comment on this since I was only ever an active player after trading was sanctioned, but I think I would have voted for trading to be possible since it encouraged community interaction as well as the possibility of achieving difficult / impossible pets & pet names.

[genesis]

without trading i wouldnt have pretty pixels :(

[Spoildlittleme]

Has TNT's decision to sanction pet trading improved or harmed the neopets community?
It is a great idea and tbh I was an active player before trading was disallowed and if both people are ok with the trade why not?

Has pet trading affected your personal gaming experience in a positive or negative way?
I got some of my dreams via trades (without sites like clraik and others) so it had an impact in good ways. I feel that the values are going to fluctuate up and down but I think with sites like clraik there won't be much of trading anyways :P

Would this vote be different if it were extended to you years ago when pet trading was against the rules?
Nope ;)

[Pusheen]

Thanks for coming up with this idea, i'm pretty excited and I can't wait to see what people think about the topics! :D

I've been a very active pet trader for more than 4 years already, so I've learned to undestand both the goodand bad sides of pet trading.
For many years I would only come to Neopets in order to trade pets, many of the other features of the site end up growing up boring in my eyes, and pet trading was a way to both archive my pet goals and to also meet new people and interact with others. Thanks to pet trading I was able to make many friends and I'm very grateful of this experience on the game. So, in general therms it has been very positive for me.

If we talk about being an illegit player, pet trading can become a little dangerous specially if you decide to trade bought pets and I have gotten accounts frozen due trading pets in the PC in the past.

In the eyes of a legit player, I don't see anything bad about pet trading and I wouldn't aboild it. As people just said, the downside of pet trading for many of us is the toxic community, but again, the PC is not the only bad community there is in the site. We can see the same or more amount of drama from other neoboards.

[Jericho]

Honestly, when pet trading was first announced way back in the day, I wasn't certain how I felt about it. I feared the impact that it would have on the community.

However, although I myself don't participate in trading pets, I believe it has done plenty of good for the site itself. There are many users who continue to play only for the sake of pet trading.

That being said... the PC is an incredibly noxious place. The amount of drama that happens over pet trading is ridiculous. Nevertheless, I definitely believe that TNT should continue to allow pet trading; the site is dying enough as it is, and I wouldn't want to see the state it would be in if the pet traders left.

I might also add that I don't think that trading pets is wrong in any way; after all, people do it with real animals, so pixel pets are a nonissue as far as "morality" goes. Personally, though, I'll continue to avoid the PC at all costs, lol.

[cinnamon]

Responses to people's thoughts:


Pet trading has been around due to the high demand when the pound had only the abandoned and adopt features. Interestingly enough, it was more in secret but it was way more risky. I only went to the PC in 2014 but trading has happened since the transfer option has opened up, where bn krawks would go for Mid UC Faeries, and on different boards like the AC!

Pets that were near impossible to someone now has a chance of obtaining by quicker and safer means. Even in the establishment of trading, pets got more notoriety as they implemented the "Active Pet" on the boards.

Let's not forget, the value of neopoints has dropped incredibly. 30k in 2004 is 300k now. Fountain Faerie Quests have diminished popular colors like Plushie and Stealthy. Converted trading is virtually non-existent to say the least with how much freebies are given.

I appreciate your recap on the timeline! I actually forgot that active pets used to not be a thing on the boards. I do remember that the transfer option was introduced and I feel like making that available kind of put the community in a place they they'd twisted TNT's arm into allowing pet trading. I remember when the decision was made it didn't seem as much like something they thought would benefit and grow the site, but rather a defeated, yeah...go ahead. Trading is getting hard now because of the drop in draik & krawk values, it makes UC all that more hopeless to obtain through legit methods.




In a way, the consequences of allowing pet trading created its own problems, and only solved the problems that only became problems AFTER its creation...In this way, the introduction of trade sanction only turned pets into an issue, brought more awareness to how pet value contributed to account value & user identity and pride, and formed the environment to develop documented framework on pet values themselves.

Goals are really important for games like neopets - the site is what you make it. If you have no interest or goals, nothing attracts you to come back. With this in mind, I do think that TNT sanctioning trades was beneficial for the growth and retention of the community.

You make an excellent case for it's continuation on the site. You are SO dead on about how trading solved problems that weren't problems before it existed. I feel like this is what potatoespotate is hitting on below as well. I think there were some players that cared about names, but overall many players were happy with what they had until value began being assigned to every aspect of a pet and they knew they could obtain something better.



I would love to just be able to create the pets I want like the good old days, then I won't give a fuck even if trading is against the rules, though I'd rather it stay allowed since we can't create the RW/RNs we wanted.

I miss that too.



Should JS bring out a UC paint brush or give all pets the option of being UCs ~ No

Ahhh! You are foreshadowing topic #2. XD Pet trading and UC's are super intertwined IMO and I almost combined them, but there's too much to explore in each.



First of all, Sloth must know what font that is you're using for the graphics. I love it


Ahahaha, I got it on dafont, it's called Luna. I wanted to use something fun that I wouldn't use in normal design work. XD


My Point Of View:


I think pet trading has both improved and harmed the neopets community. I believe it solved problems created by decisions made in the 3 years leading up to it's sanction, but it's also created a host of problems and a climate of dissatisfaction that used to not be prevalent or really exist on the site.
I have never participated in pet trading but it has affected my gameplay in how I relate to other players and my attitudes about the site and the community as a whole.
Before I read this board my vote would have been yes because I'm not a fan of it and I want to watch the world burn. However, because it does exist, many points have been made that getting rid of it in the state the site is in would be dangerous.
As someone who has been with neo from their humble beginnings I have been heavily opposed to pet trading from day 1.


I started playing neopets in 2000 when I was ten years old and it was a large portion of my game playing as a child/teen. Half of my pets had shitty names because I made most of them as a ten year old and even used the name randomizer they had at the time which would put things like _657 or _none into their names. Back in those times players didn't seem to care as much about names and were hesitant to pound their neopets and took a lot of pride in "saving" pets from the pound and caring for the pets they chose to create.

Neopets at the core was intended to be about this weird little world where you made a ragtag family of pets and explored the features of the site with them at your stead. It's why you have to click a button 6 times to abandon a pet and you're guilted every time your pet is hungry. TNT used to be very passionate about ensuring a fair and equal gameplay experience for all players.

Excepting some retired items and avatars, was a game where you could theoretically achieve anything with enough skill and hard work. Yes 4mil for a paint brush was for many young players pre-inflation, but it was still something that you could technically achieve over time on your own.

I believe an imbalance was created in the game that never existed before when they converted pets and allowed some to remain UC. The conversion happened almost exactly one year before trading became allowed I think there there is a strong cause and effect here. Now players could no longer get that squishy looking plushie unless they were lucky enough to adopt one. This is something that had never existed before in the game.

The imbalance that UC's created in the game was really only able to be remedied by pet trading. However, in doing so, it opened a whole new can of worms. It solved the initial discontent players felt with their lot about not being able to get UC's, but created new levels of discontent that were not prominent on the site or in players hearts.

Pet trading in the beginning was scandalous to some more traditional players like myself primarily because who would ever want to trade off their pet like some common whore? Over the years it developed into a valuation system even more complex than I could have imagined. "VWN", "5L" "UC" and "DUCK" all became new ways delineate a pet's value level.

I don't like trading because I don't like how it has evolved on the site and how it has brought out the worst in some players in a very public manner. I don't like how people covet other people's pets and there is an entitlement that had become prevalent on the PC that is very dangerous. Players are harassed for keeping their UC pets as opposed to trading them and people feel that it's a waste for pets to stay on their owners accounts if that owner doesn't do XY and Z.

There used to be a clear definition between items and pets and now I'm not so sure.

Players are effectively valuing and buying their neopets on the PC, yet we here on clraik get getting iced if we get caught buying a legit pet with USD.

I think I could get behind pet trading a little more if TNT just called it what is and set up an official means for trading pets outside of the boards. Like, if you could post a pet UFT and players can make offers on the pet similar to the Trading Post. You can search UFT pets via a search bar instead of bumping boards saving yourself time and drama.

I could go into more grueling depth but overall but let me leave you with one thing. Viacom bought Neopets in 2005. In 2007 both NC and the conversion were introduced to the site. This forever changed the game in ways that those of you who weren't a part of the site before that date may never quite relate to or understand. I'll stop here or I'll bleed into topics that should be save for later discussions but I wanted to thank all of you who have shared your views so far. I really appreciate reading about everyone's experiences!

[Creme]

I'd be more inclined to not give a shit about pet trading (seeing as I don't participate) if they got rid of UCs. UCs have literally ruined the game.

Don't get me wrong, I love the look of most of the UCs and I used to own several myself. But it's gotten to the point now where they are in such little supply with so much demand that they're throwing the game completely off balance. I might get hate for this, but I honestly think that pet trading and UCs cannot coexist in order for the game to have some sort of redeeming factor. One of them really has to go.

[Elf]

I don't see the point of converted pet trading AT ALL unless you're trying to get a lab only color like... for example, trying to get a robot pet so you offer an unlimited custom to the person trying to trade it, but otherwise I don't get it?

[Vis]

You are SO dead on about how trading solved problems that weren't problems before it existed. I feel like this is what potatoespotate is hitting on below as well. I think there were some players that cared about names, but overall many players were happy with what they had until value began being assigned to every aspect of a pet and they knew they could obtain something better.

The imbalance that UC's created in the game was really only able to be remedied by pet trading. However, in doing so, it opened a whole new can of worms. It solved the initial discontent players felt with their lot about not being able to get UC's, but created new levels of discontent that were not prominent on the site or in players hearts.

That's precisely it, absolutely spot-on. Pet trading for the last few years seems to really focus on the search for a higher goal; this is where the 'climate of dissatisfaction' comes in. There has been a marked increase of interest in account improvement guilds, too. I think that forms part of the natural evolution of Neopets as a game, given the limitations TNT impose - one of the only ways to pass time now is work on your account. Furthermore, due to the very nature of its userbase (no longer children), the focus of the players has shifted onto long-term goals --- I read someone's comment on this, but cannot remember who said it.

Due to the discontinued purge, lots of names people want are still taken up - a competing petsite at least has an active purge, and they also let you purchase name changing items for pets and user accounts. Neopets doesn't have this, so people are forced to 'trade' for them, but this brings me onto the next point.


Over the years it developed into a valuation system even more complex than I could have imagined. "VWN", "5L" "UC" and "DUCK" all became new ways delineate a pet's value level.

There used to be a clear definition between items and pets and now I'm not so sure.

Players are effectively valuing and buying their neopets on the PC, yet we here on clraik get getting iced if we get caught buying a legit pet with USD.

I think I could get behind pet trading a little more if TNT just called it what is and set up an official means for trading pets outside of the boards. Like, if you could post a pet UFT and players can make offers on the pet similar to the Trading Post. You can search UFT pets via a search bar instead of bumping boards saving yourself time and drama.

What really surprised me the first time I went by the PC and got into trading was how... very businesslike it was. These pets were literally traded around as goods. I am not morally opposed to it nor am I being melodramatic, but it was just such a novel way to view things! All those years previously I had just taken it for granted that people would keep their pets, maybe toss one or two between friends for sentimental purposes, but not trade them like currency. Since TNT expressly forbade the trade of pets for virtual or RL goods, it was weird to me that they allowed NP customs in exchange for pets. Those NP customs I've made to trade for names I like - that's literally paying for the name with NP, and yet that's allowed. I got the name I liked, and the trader got the colour they wanted, but wow! What a strange and roundabout system for a legit purchase.

Speaking of 'buying' pets...


I don't like how people covet other people's pets and there is an entitlement that had become prevalent on the PC that is very dangerous. Players are harassed for keeping their UC pets as opposed to trading them and people feel that it's a waste for pets to stay on their owners accounts if that owner doesn't do XY and Z.

I feel this marginally ties into how inactive UC selling is prominent on cheating sites. It's a complete waste for a precious UC (who made it precious? TNT did indirectly, but the users did most of the work) to rot on an inactive account, so it's liberated and sold. Keeps stuff going, seller gets money, buyer gets a nice purchase, holy crap oh dear if the old owner ever comes back. I've bought pets, and I'd be mortified if their owners came back - pets gone, account frozen, but importantly, I've stolen their pet. This awful potential situation hasn't put me off buying in the end. That's another discussion, though. If I went and bought a legit pet not grabbed from an inactive, I'd have no qualms whatsoever.

Remember when the owner of that UC RB Kyrii adopted him out? The new owner went all out in her application, had grand plans, but then never really did anything with him when she received him. I saw lots of people discontent that an amazing UC like that had gone to waste. I was also a bit miffed about it, but really... when I think about it carefully, who am I to judge? She wanted it, she applied for it, she got it, and that's pretty fair. But this nagging feeling of disappointment is still there, and I think it stems from my arrogant belief that I'd be a better owner. Take that and multiply it by tons of people on the PC, I suppose :cold: