This gender/sexuality thing is getting ridiculous

[cloudxcrash]

Hijacked from a close friend of mine, I think she nailed it.

"I had to take a break from the internet last night when I saw someone advise a 15 year old girl that she was "agender or a man" because she didn't like wearing dresses or makeup. No other information necessary, they just straight up told her that she was not a real woman.

This is getting ridiculous. Every micro-variation in the human experience is now its own gender and/or sexual orientation. There is a different word for "feeling like a girl 90% of the time and like nothing 10% of the time" than there is for "feeling like a girl 90% of the time and like a another gender which cannot be defined but is not nothing 10% of the time".

Do you need to get to know someone before you fall in love with them? Normal people would say that doesn't need a word since no one really falls in love without knowing someone. But with a free membership on tumblr you can now call yourself ~demiromantic~! What used to be an inability to distinguish infatuation from mature love is now a sexual orientation.

It's important to respect everyone's identity, no matter how ridiculous it is. If someone claims that their gender is hot dogs then by god you had better not misgender them by calling them him or her instead of hotdogself. (Note this is not some strawman criticism of trans folk, I am talking about people who actually, literally claim that their gender is "friendship" or something else that is that out there.)

What kind of boy do you want to be? Hemiboy? Demiboy? Nan0boy? Anoboy? Magiboy? Apparently those are all words now, and they mean almost exactly the same thing. Ironically, the same people who tend to complain about conforming to norms are trying as hard as possible to shove people into the tiniest boxes possible.

And apparently it doesn't take much to get yourself out of that box you thought you were in. Are you a girl who simply likes monster trucks more than princesses? It couldn't possibly be that you simply have a unique personality like literally every other human being on earth. Nope, not conforming to a sexist valley girl stereotype actually diminishes your female identity! Turns out, being trans is as superficial as the clothes you wear or the music you listen to. Nothing more.

I honestly think this "all inclusive, no questions asked, no quality control" policy in the younger social-justice oriented sphere really detracts from the real issues. Chewing someone out for not earnestly believing that Space Whale Gender is a legitimate identity doesn't make anyone look good, and it derails conversations from real issues. Not to mention the poor impressionable young kids who feel out of place, as young kids often do. Someone who just needs to be told that they are not a weirdo for thinking an anime character is hot is now told that they are "probably animesexual and Kakashi is your headmate, you two have a soul bond."

I guess what I'm saying is people need to take it down a notch."

[Misha]

Nailed it

[Misplay]

I mean, I get where your friend is coming from. There is an absolutely ludicrous amount of gender identities. That being said, though, there is some validity to their claims. Identity is such an abstract concept, who is anyone to tell anyone else that their identity isn't a real thing?

[Sci_Girl]

It agree it is getting real annoying. I read somewhere that some websites now will have like 90 gender "identification" choices for people. Variation is great and all but it is honestly turning it onto a joke. I mean like that poster said, there is a word for someone who is 90% female but 10% not then 90% female 10% male, some may be 50/50 in feelings, then there is the sexual orientation part not just the identification. A word for no sex, some sex, lots of sex, sex with certain people... it just goes on and on. It is ridiculous. At times I think many say they are so and so simply because they want to be different, go against the grain of society to stand up against it. Those human rights chest thumpers who scream at you if you do not pronounce their seldom heard orientation correctly. No, those individuals are trying to be something else just to be something else. It really downplays the individuals who honestly do identify as another sex or a certain lifestyle.

[Lenars]

While I wish to not be disrespectful to anyone's gender.

I honestly think genders if fucking stupid.
It should just be boy/girl/both/it.

Who feels like their left leg is male and their right leg is female??
People (imo) who wants to be the special snowflake..

[Misplay]

While I wish to not be disrespectful to anyone's gender.

I honestly think genders if fucking stupid.
It should just be boy/girl/both/it.

Who feels like their left leg is male and their right leg is female??
People (imo) who wants to be the special snowflake..

Holy moly was that ever ignorant. With today's expectations on gender roles, can you honestly say that you can see every single person fitting into two tiny little boxes? Just because you feel a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else does. It's not as simple as "my left leg is male" and that's absolute garbage.

[Winona]

If someone thinks they're an animal, they can go right ahead and do that. I will not judge, and there are absolutely lots of instances where that's a spiritual or religious thing. But when someone thinks they're an animal and screams about being oppressed because of it, I'm out.

Or, of course, this.



My name is Yuki Ayamine and I am almost 16. I am accomplished and ambitious, and I do not sit in front of the internet all day but instead balance schoolwork, social justice, writing, drawing, and studying my country and its language with a loving passion. I�ve always experienced extreme nationality dysphoria, and recently realized it is ethnic dysphoria too. I feel disgusted and disappointed when I look at the mirror and my inside is still hidden. This is serious, not some mental �problem,� as I was almost driven to suicide because my future seemed so bleak in a land like this. Then I realized, Japan is so close to being perfect. At least, Japan is my perfection, my happiness, the country that I belong in and that I should have been part of my entire life. It�s not just because I love anime and am a fujoshi fangirl-it�s not just because I love everything that�s kawaii-it�s not just because Pocky and ramen are my favorite foods-it�s everything about Japan that defines me and explains who I am as a person. I�m a typical Japanese girl who loves Japanese pop culture and society and the ancient traditions still manifest in Kyoto. Of course Americans can love Japan, but there�s a difference between being an American otaku and someone whose true satisfaction comes from their Japanese identity. I plan to spend the rest of my life studying and experiencing everything about Japan, and will move soon. I am very excited to renounce the American citizenship that�s been hanging over my head and threatening my happiness. I know that in Japan because of my skin color I will be looked upon as a foreigner, and that�s why I plan to live with a host family. After getting rid of the western-ness I may accidentally have acquired, I�ll be a normal Japanese in every situation, socially and culturally.


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[Air]

I'm agender, meaning I ain't got a gender.
(then again i'm fucking air, i dont need yo social shit norms. i float around and shit.)

Pretty much whatever you feel comfortable with, good for ya.
I stopped caring what people believe to be 'special snowflake' sydrome and shit is.

Attention seeking is one thing, that makes you dumb and no one loves you.
But if you really believe yourself to be something, then by all means embrace it.
That shit's for you, and to make you happy. No one else.

TL;DR - Be who you are, fuck the police.

[Salivating Slorg]

TIL stupid people judge all of society based on bullshit from Tumblr. lol

Tumblr is a cesspool.

[PrettySarcastic]

I'm agender, meaning I ain't got a gender.
(then again i'm fucking air, i dont need yo social shit norms. i float around and shit.)

Pretty much whatever you feel comfortable with, good for ya.
I stopped caring what people believe to be 'special snowflake' sydrome and shit is.

Attention seeking is one thing, that makes you dumb and no one loves you.
But if you really believe yourself to be something, then by all means embrace it.
That shit's for you, and to make you happy. No one else.

TL;DR - Be who you are, fuck the police.

This 100%. :)

[Mindfang]

I'm on mobile so I cba complaining more than I need to

I'd find your friends criticisms valid had they not blamed tumblr for the concepts. Tumblr did not create being genderless, or a demiboy, or a demigirl or agender (meeeee!). Tumblr may go too far sometimes, true, but why do you feel uncomfortable with the concept of gender being challenged?

Demi sexualities and romantic identities I agree I don't understand, but why do you feel uncomfortable that people feel comfortable identifying that way? What's so wrong in boxing yourself in with labels if it makes you feel secure in your identity? More importantly, why does it concern you? Just use their correct fucking pronouns and respect their identity, it's literally not hard.

Like Air (I love your profiles they're always so pretty!) said; life becomes so much easier when you stop worrying about special snowflake labels and apply the ones you feel comfortable to yourself. And that's what a lot of these people have done. And that's great. Because a majority of them are young children and are learning to embrace this part of themselves early.

Do you know how transphobic I was when I was 14? How miserable and confused I was as a result? I'd misgender my trans friends on purpose and call them shims and make fun of them when they got mad, then barely 3 years later I came out myself as trans and boy was that ever embarrassing. I became that disgusting "homophobic bully TURNS OUT TO HAVE A GAY CRUSH ALL ALONG!!!!!" Trope. It was shameful and embarrassing and I'm glad kids won't go through it because they're learning about gender identities early.

People who identify as these things are usually mentally ill too, and it causes a sense of confusion in their sense of identity. Labelling is their way of coping. Just like self harm is a coping mechanism for depressed people, labelling yourself as accurately as possible is a coping mechanism for people with, for instance, borderline personality disorder, where their sense of identity is so warped or nonexistent it feels difficult to know they're even real sometimes.

Being mentally ill is stressful, it's even more stressful when people are going around calling you a special snowflake or a tumblrina (again, the concept of multiple genders outside the binary IS NOT a tumblr thing and has been around for millennia), and once you learn that these people are just ignorant and don't want to change that part of them, you realise it's easy to ignore and that you're free to id how you want. I was scared to identify as nonhuman, or genderless, because I was scared people would judge me... And they did! And they do! But it makes me feel secure in my identity which is otherwise scary and confusing to me, so... Why do I care? A lot of kids are taking this mentality on board AND I LOVE IT!!!!!!! BECAUSE IT MAKES ANTI SJWS AND TRANSPHOBES UNCOMFORTABLE!!!!!!!! HEHEHE

again though I really must ask, why do you feel the identities of others, especially mentally ill people and younger teenagers, concern you?

Tl;dr this is a bad fuckin post op! Let people fuckin live

[Ribbon]

I think there's always a middle ground. People definitely shouldn't be making light of sexualities/gender identities by subscribing to one that they are not truly a part of. But so what? It's still better to honour everyone's identities even if some people aren't genuine, rather than disregard everyone's identities in case some people aren't genuine. It's literally "innocent until proven guilty", for lack of a better phrase.

Don't be that asshole who invalidates someone's identity. Does it really inconvenience you to call someone fae/faeself? Fuck, I get so mad because one of my friends keeps purposefully misgendering trans people. That's fuckin disrespectful. You can either accept what they claim they are and it's no skin off your nose, or you could ruin someone's day/month/ages just because you thought a concept - or a collective movement - was over the top.

JUS B URSELF
AND JUST BE KIND TO OTHERS.


<3

damn, fruitbat was right, you are the #1 sjw (y)

I agree 100% with your position though! i think you said it better than i did. :u

[Naked Gamer]

Nailed it!

Some video on the Tubes atm trending got lots of hate with a trans girl to man. Don't understand the hate!


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[Drizzy]

I can tell already this thread will be the cause of major drama. Pre-warning to keep things civil, you opinion is your opinion not something everybody has to agree with.

I personally don't understand gender/sexuality roles. It's a fairly new concept for me, didn't even know 97% of these non-binary things existed. Hell fuck I didn't even know what non-binary was up until 2 days ago but I'm trying to understand things. From an outsider/ignorant perspective, to me the whole thing felt like a bunch of kids bored with their lives making shit up as they go along. That was my first thought. It sounds oppressive but it's a change and like any change it will be met with resistance.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the things I'm learning because it's like a whole Pandora's box just opened up and out came all this 'crazy' shit that I didn't know existed came sprawling out. It's gonna take me some time to understand and even longer to accept but I'm trying.
I think the point Peridot is trying to make is that its a coping mechanism for some to help them understand who they might be, let them know they are not alone and there are others like them going through the same thing.
Just wanted to stress that incase it got overlooked because it was pointed out to me that the suicide rate is fucking gnarly with trans people so the increase in awareness is a good thing imo but for mine it's definitely going to take time to learn and accept.

[Mindfang]

I can tell already this thread will be the cause of major drama. Pre-warning to keep things civil, you opinion is your opinion not something everybody has to agree with.

I personally don't understand gender/sexuality roles. It's a fairly new concept for me, didn't even know 97% of these non-binary things existed. Hell fuck I didn't even know what non-binary was up until 2 days ago but I'm trying to understand things. From an outsider/ignorant perspective, to me the whole thing felt like a bunch of kids bored with their lives making shit up as they go along. That was my first thought. It sounds oppressive but it's a change and like any change it will be met with resistance.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the things I'm learning because it's like a whole Pandora's box just opened up and out came all this 'crazy' shit that I didn't know existed came sprawling out. It's gonna take me some time to understand and even longer to accept but I'm trying.
I think the point Peridot is trying to make is that its a coping mechanism for some to help them understand who they might be, let them know they are not alone and there are others like them going through the same thing.
Just wanted to stress that incase it got overlooked because it was pointed out to me that the suicide rate is fucking gnarly with trans people so the increase in awareness is a good thing imo but for mine it's definitely going to take time to learn and accept.

honestlyyyyyy i really cant blame you for being like "the fuck?" at most of it, because admittedly i was too. it wasnt until the last year i adopted the "unless its hurting me personally its not really my place to tell them its wrong" mentality. my friend came out to me as a demigirl recently and my first reaction was "what the actual shit are you talking about? just say youre nonbinary lol" (of course i just said 'ok sure' and rolled with it, but like you said it was a new idea and i met it with resistance and confusion and overall 'sounds fake, grow up') but in keeping an open mind i eventually sort of came to Get It. sometimes i still dont, but i think in this case all it really takes is... accepting you dont fully understand it and moving on? you dont need to understand everything in life, things you dont understand shouldnt be met with violence or general disrespect either. like shit i dont fuckin understand physics but im not gonna go around bullying physicists or yelling at objects that do basic physics shit as they are wont to do. like... you just need to think "ok well clearly it makes them comfortable and its not my place to dictate that, i hope theyre happy and secure and ill do my best to help them feel safe around me"

of course im using the general 'you' here haha.

like even i, socially aware god on the top of moral mountain that i am, still look at concepts (as i mentioned with demiromanticism/demisexuality) and think "thats... fake... and sort of dumb sounding..." but i think, given the general intolerant environment a majority of people grow up in, thats to be expected. i find myself faulting people for it even though i do it too, and thats shitty of me, but even the most socially aware people arent perfect. nobody came out of the womb reading a goddamn textbook on social injustice being all "doctor, please do not assign me a gender, it is cissexist and oppressive. now, if i may talk to you about racism," like? purging yourself of learned intolerance is a good thing but it does take a while and it doesnt matter how much of an sjw you are, youre still gonna have some problematic opinions. its just realising theyre Problematique and working on fixing them thats the issue.

but yeah, in the least patronising asspat way, im glad you at least have a mindset where youre willing to listen and try to get it even if you dont. especially if youre willing to take the coping mechanism aspect of it on board. a lot of people arent even willing to do that alone lmao. theres a big difference between confusing with willingness to adapt and intolerance with no willingness to learn and its sometimes difficult to discern who has what mentality but uh.

whatever point i was gonna make should probably make itself clear to someone here because its not making itself clear to me anymore LMFAO shit boy. my fetish is typing words with the hopes theyll make up coherent sentences at least once.



damn, fruitbat was right, you are the #1 sjw (y)

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[Naked Gamer]

I'm agender, meaning I ain't got a gender.
(then again i'm fucking air, i dont need yo social shit norms. i float around and shit.)

Pretty much whatever you feel comfortable with, good for ya.
I stopped caring what people believe to be 'special snowflake' sydrome and shit is.

Attention seeking is one thing, that makes you dumb and no one loves you.
But if you really believe yourself to be something, then by all means embrace it.
That shit's for you, and to make you happy. No one else.

TL;DR - Be who you are, fuck the police.

You're a fucking awesome person! :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Precious]

It is funny to me to see how people feel the need to judge others. They value their own opinion so much that they say anything they think. The example of the 15 yo is a good one. One is entitled to think that the other person is agender or male. But now comes the important step: think before you speak. Expressing your opinion can really confuse or harm someone else. So before I speak: is it helpful or neccessary for the other person what I am thinking?

[Naked Gamer]

It is funny to me to see how people feel the need to judge others. They value their own opinion so much that they say anything they think. The example of the 15 yo is a good one. One is entitled to think that the other person is agender or male. But now comes the important step: think before you speak. Expressing your opinion can really confuse or harm someone else. So before I speak: is it helpful or neccessary for the other person what I am thinking?

Completely agree, people just need to learn to shut up at times and keep there views to them self unless it's positive to the situation like supporting the person.


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[cloudxcrash]

Peridot Neither of us feel uncomfortable about the concept of gender being challenged, we're just concerned about the well-being of people. Extremism is not exclusive to politics and/or religion, it can be found everywhere, and the gender and sexuality debate seems to have a whole lot of it. Some gender and sexuality classifications are becoming ridiculous enough to trivialize the entire subject in the eyes of others, and it attracts attention away from those who are truly struggling with it. Every niggling little preference does not warrant a whole new sexuality, and quite frankly the general idea that it does is astoundingly illogical.

If we (as a society) accept these new labels what are these people going to have to accept? Others wanting to identify and be accepted as animals? I'm not talking about cosplay or even enjoying the furry dress up and play. I'm talking about those that want to live like a cat, dog, wolf, bug and so on. Are those willing to house, feed, walk, clean up after, support.... ah well you get the point. They will be able to make as valid claim for being a cat as anyone can for being anything else. The funny thing is that there legitimately are people who think that way. And not even to the level that they think they are a wolf in a human body, but even fictional things like dragons. Even fictional characters like "Dave from Homestuck." Even inanimate objects like one person on another forum who claims to be a reincarnation of the Titanic. And I don't mean a troll, this person is serious. And there is a whole thread of people who seriously, earnestly go along with it. It has to end, you have to draw the line somewhere.


People who identify as these things are usually mentally ill too, and it causes a sense of confusion in their sense of identity.

Then what these people need is professional help to deal with their problems, not guides to hotdogself (only zhu/zhem/zhirs pronouns! :rolleyes:) on the internet. And since we're on pronouns, it's not reasonable to expect everyone you meet to use pronouns outside of she, he, and they. "They" is an acceptable catch-all for any sort of "other," but demanding the use of something like ze, xhe, etc. is unreasonable.

[Mindfang]

CloudAcara oh i get it, youre pulling the extreme scenarios that would never happen. ok.

people who are kin with animals usually have enough sense to know they wont get any sort of "rights" to be kin. those who think kin are oppressed are generally ignored by the majority of the kin community, because a majority of kin know they are not oppressed, nor "on par" with trans people, and really the closest theyll get to their kintype is usually dressing up, which they are fine with. using the extreme people as your outline for an entire community is never a good idea. i used to feel the same as you, but in talking to maaaaany kintypes, i learned that they dont expect anything except people to leave them the fuck alone to live how they want. if that includes shitting in the woods and eating dog food, then let them do it? it literally does not affect you in a negative way lol.

you know what makes people take trans people less seriously? people who dont want to take trans people seriously to begin with. neopronouns, gender neutral pronouns, custom pronouns... dont change the fact someone is trans. nonbinary, agender, demigender, all those genders... are legitimate genders. which, again, have been around for millennia. everyones taken them seriously all this time, why do people have an issue now? how do you know people with neopronouns and the like arent struggling with it themselves either? as far as i know, i being someone who identifies as agender using it/its pronouns for the most part, i struggle with it, and my friends, who use fae/faeself pronouns struggles with it too. gender itself is a struggle, accommodating your desires to make yourself more comfortable in your gender identity only makes it easier for yourself. i get that barely anyone wants to call me 'it' in real life! it makes people uncomfortable! ive been told it makes them uncomfortable, so i offer alternative pronouns (he/him for anyone reading who isnt ok with it/its!), i told my friend who uses fae- pronouns it makes me feel awkward, but you know what i found? respecting the pronouns didnt take much effort at all! and after a while i learned that their struggle is just as valid as mine, as a nonbinary person.

gender itself is a valid struggle. there is no proper or legitimate way to identify. there is nothing that prevents anyone taking gender issues less seriously than people who do not want to take gender seriously to begin with. they will blame pronouns and identities, but the truth is? theyre just dealing with internalised intolerance, and they will find, as drizzy said, that although they dont get it at first, they will if they just Listen and Think About It and keep an open mind. if they dont want to take gender seriously, they wont, and thats their issue to deal with. people identifying how they wish wont change that, they just use it as an excuse to be... transphobic, is all that is really.

also, this idea that everyone who identifies as these things needs, isnt getting, or has the access to "professional help" is classist and ableist, im sorry to inform you. not everyone can have access to therapy. i only have access to it because i get it free in the uk. not everyone can afford it, not everyone can get it safely due to an abusive home life (which theyre using their identity to cope with, because you cannot control an abusive household. but you can control your identity and how others refer to you, it gives them a security they dont otherwise have), or theyre too young, or anything could be preventing these people from acquiring medical attention.

im getting medical attention. ive told my therapist i identify as nonhuman with no gender, theyre ok with it. because they know its a coping mechanism to deal with my mental illness. youll find thats the case with many therapists actually. if they see that their patients identity is not harming them or the people around them, theyll allow it. because it harms no one.

the identity of others does not harm you or anyone else. their reasoning does not harm you or anyone else. their identity is valid, and doesnt invalidate the identities of """"real"""" trans people (which i am! and i am friends with many trans people and nonbinary and alt gender people! we dont invalidate any of the others identities!). it also isnt unreasonable for people to ask for basic respect? thats what using peoples pronouns is. respect. lol.

like, again, it really does not concern you how mentally ill children or adults choose to express themselves. just respect them and move on. you dont need to understand nor talk over trans people, which you... are doing right now actually.

[learningtoneopet1]

I know I'm going to get railed for this post but if you want to challenge it, I ask two things.
1) Keep it civil. Just because my opinion doesn't follow the socially accepted norm doesn't mean you have the right to belittle it.
2) Let me take you seriously. This means that I want you to write and act like an adult in your response. If your argument is guided by blinded rage towards my opinion, then I will simply ignore it

With those out of the way, I'm more traditional in the sense that I believe that people born as males should "feel" like a male and females should "feel" like a female. This doesn't mean males playing with stereotypical male toys or for them to fulfill jobs such as construction or medicine. I think that just because a male likes to play dress up or play with "girl' toys, doesn't mean he should classify himself as being female or that society should push him to identify as a female. People automatically assume that someone not adhering to their gender role is transgender, which I believe is a flawed method of looking at it. In my opinion, nobody is born wanting to be the opposite gender. As of right now, nobody for sure knows why someone might want to identify as another gender. Some people say you were meant to be born as the opposite gender, but this doesn't make any sense from a biological standpoint. Which sperm cell gets inside the egg is completely based on factors such as sperm vitality, sperm count, position, and Brownian motion. Nobody is born as the "wrong" sex. Therefore, I think identifying as a different gender may be more based on neurological and social factors. Is there anything wrong with identifying as a different gender? No. Do I have any prejudice against these people? Nope. It just is just a statistical deviation from the norm, so I don't think it should be glorified in the media by creating dozens of gender identities that people are almost encouraged to follow.

[Maki]

wait...logically, the way i see it, being human is the only reason you are able to even identify as nonhuman in the first place..unless im missing something. lol. do you feel me? i dont know too much about that kinda thing but im very open to being educated Peridot, im just looking at the topic of "nonhuman" (including animal, entity, kin etc) from a logical point of view.

its not like dogs can identify as human, or the tulip in your garden; identity -and the philosophical search for it- is attributed to humans, is it not? i feel like if you were truly a dog-kin (is that the right term) then you wouldnt be able to have such intellectual dysphoria in the first place.

[PrettySarcastic]

I remain of the opinion that if you're not hurting other people, be whoever and whatever you want to be.

[Sci_Girl]

I know I'm going to get railed for this post but if you want to challenge it, I ask two things.
1) Keep it civil. Just because my opinion doesn't follow the socially accepted norm doesn't mean you have the right to belittle it.
2) Let me take you seriously. This means that I want you to write and act like an adult in your response. If your argument is guided by blinded rage towards my opinion, then I will simply ignore it

With those out of the way, I'm more traditional in the sense that I believe that people born as males should "feel" like a male and females should "feel" like a female. This doesn't mean males playing with stereotypical male toys or for them to fulfill jobs such as construction or medicine. I think that just because a male likes to play dress up or play with "girl' toys, doesn't mean he should classify himself as being female or that society should push him to identify as a female. People automatically assume that someone not adhering to their gender role is transgender, which I believe is a flawed method of looking at it. In my opinion, nobody is born wanting to be the opposite gender. As of right now, nobody for sure knows why someone might want to identify as another gender. Some people say you were meant to be born as the opposite gender, but this doesn't make any sense from a biological standpoint. Which sperm cell gets inside the egg is completely based on factors such as sperm vitality, sperm count, position, and Brownian motion. Nobody is born as the "wrong" sex. Therefore, I think identifying as a different gender may be more based on neurological and social factors. Is there anything wrong with identifying as a different gender? No. Do I have any prejudice against these people? Nope. It just is just a statistical deviation from the norm, so I don't think it should be glorified in the media by creating dozens of gender identities that people are almost encouraged to follow.


Would have to agree with this. I was born a woman. I despise lady things like makeup and dresses and doing my nails. I do not do it at all. I would rather be fishing, pulling out fish guts, and cooking in the mucky dirty woods rather than gussying up for a dance night. I better not be expected to identify as a boy because of that. I know some, albeit very few, will say I should. Some people get too much into "well you should be lady like" or "be more manly grow a beard". The fact is tons of people have times when the opposite sex shines through based on their behaviors and actions. I am a tomboy I guess you can say. Like I mentioned I would rather go camping and fishing and rough it in the woods than to ever put make up on, gussy up, and dance the night away with giggles and sparkles. Then there are men who may show that feminine side very strong. They care more about the way their hair looks than what the sports team is doing in the game. That sort of thing. We all do it in some way or another.

[Mindfang]

learningtoneopet1 sorry if it seems like i dont try to reply in an adult way, i think the way i talk is just generally childish or condescending without me meaning to be. i promise you if i seem condescending or rude in this response its not intentional >____>
but being trans is more than just "i was told i was a boy at birth, i have a weiner, but i like dresses", it has this disconnect between body and mind that lets you just... Know. youre not what youve been raised and socialised as. for instance... when i was younger, before puberty, id get mistaken for male a lot, and id refer to myself to new people with male sounding names and id just feel comfortable being like my male friends. of course tomboys exist, and i was told thats all i was, but as i hit puberty and got the inevitable Titty, i started to feel wrong? like, there was something in my brain when i looked in the mirror and saw them that said "this just isnt right at all". its very hard to explain properly because its not something you can fully understand until youve experienced it, as youve probably guessed. its just a series of mental cues that let you know what your body looks like is not what it should look like.
so yeah its more neurological than physical i think... i mean its sort of both, but its more your brain telling you that your physical form isnt how it feels. some people are able to ignore it of course but there comes a time in some people where it becomes this frustrating itch that youre trying really hard to ignore...

like, when youre in the mall and youve got a really bad itch on your inner thigh. and youre trying real hard to not scratch your inner thigh in public because people would frown upon it and think youre scratching your crotch. but its one of those itches that starts to sting the more you ignore it, and its getting more and more frustrating and irritating the longer you leave it until eventually you go "fuck it! i gotta scratch it! fuck what people think!" and some people kinda frown like "ugh look at this freak, this ANIMAL" but you feel right and everythings like 100% less frustrating and uncomfortable. thats how i think id explain it. kind of juvenile but its the best i can do on such short notice.
anyway, thats how it felt for me at least. a constant itch i ignored and ignored because i thought itd go away on its own and i was scared people would think less of me if i scratched it, but the harder i ignored it, the longer i ignored it, the more ferocious and irritated it became until my brain was pretty much screaming at me every time i took my clothes off "this (ANGRY MOTIONS TO BODY) is not right. do something, idiot." and do something i did. now it feels right.

but the thing is, for some people, it doesnt feel right to hear themselves say "i am male" or "i am female". it just... doesnt. thats another "hard to explain unless you experience it" thing. you just dont feel right, because although you look or act one way or another, you just dont feel like you fit into ANY gender. theres no set way to act male or female, youre right, but theres just a really Specific feeling that comes with being nonbinary. you feel in between, or neither, and it feels comfortable... i dont know. its a strange existence ill admit, but it feels right. it isnt physical sometimes, because i know a lot of people with vaginas who id as nonbinary and are perfectly fine with their bodies, but sometimes they need to bind their chests or something to feel right... i had to completely fucking REMOVE my titty (i almost said chest. i got my entire chest removed, im just a neck attached to a stomach.) until i felt right. the only time i feel wrong is when my brain thinks i still have boobs though. thats always weird. i didnt realise you could have phantom limbs in your tits but you learn something new every day i suppose!

its how i feel too. im definitely a trans male. im a male! i feel male. but i dont feel... 100% male? theres still a good part of me that goes "well youre more male than you were, but youre only halfway there, and that feels comfortable doesnt it?" and im like yeah youre right. youre really goddamn correct. i dont feel 100% male, but i know for actual factual that i am not in any way female in my brain. maybe people see me as female because i have a uterus and a cooch, but i dont think that makes me female. and i like being in that place between male and nothing.

sorry, does this make sense? its really hard to explain, especially when youre Me and have a hard time using english to begin with. not that its my second language or anything, i just fucking suck at wording anything LMFAO. i hope i at least got some part of it in a way thats easy to understand but i cannot stress enough that unless you experience the feeling of being a strange gender you will not understand how it is to be a strange gender. i like to call it genderweird personally, because a lot of people find it weird and hard to understand. i dont think people would appreciate cis people calling it genderweird though, so maybe not use that term unless you know people are comfortable with it. (im fine with it, call me genderweird all you like ~*~*~* ^_____^)


Mint oh no i dont disagree that im human haha. im fully aware that im human! its just another vague sort of feeling. i guess that goes hand in hand with the Coping Mechanism thing. ive never felt particularly connected with any human. even best friends, ive never felt like i relate to their experiences or their emotions or anything. although i speak and... exist. as a human being, my brain just doesnt feel like its on par with other human brains? i think thats a mental illness thing in my case, because its obvious ive got like 50000 screws loose, and as a result i just dont feel myself fitting in with other humans.
i dont get angry when people go "well uh youre obviously human man you dont have a dogs body" or anything because like. fuckin DUH. i can see that every time i look in the mirror. its more a thing i tell myself and people im comfortable with, and it makes me feel a little better about a lot of the weird shit i think and do. i dont know what the hell i think i am, i just know theres a disconnect between me and a good majority of humans.
sort of dont connect with dogs either. theyre a little hard to hold a conversation with. try as i might they just cant seem to learn english, nor can i learn dog. cats are just as difficult. insects too.
jokes aside, i do agree that you need to be human to not feel human, im not going to completely deny the fact im a human, its just. how i feel i guess.

but yeah, i doubt dogs can identify as human. its a little unfortunate if they do though, because they dont have the means of expressing it. that must really suck.
i do think they can identify as cats though. and cats can id as dogs. ive met dogs who were adopted by cat mothers when they were pups and as a result act like cats in a clumsy dog-like way in their adulthood. maybe thats not an identity thing, but its definitely really goddamn cute to see.
wouldnt doubt that dolphins have the capacity to identify as other creatures though. i hate dolphins. theyre too sentient for their own good.




again, and this applies to everyone here, if i ever seem too angry or too patronising or juvenile in any response to a serious topic then i assure you its... probably not intentional. anger is subject to situation, but i do not at all mean to make people feel stupid or mocked for asking questions and not understanding things. if youre willing to learn, im willing to explain the absolute best i can, but be aware, and i know its probably dead fuckin obvious already, that because im not 100% mentally sound it is extremely hard for me to word things the way i need to, or the way you need me to, but i wont be offended if you ask me to word things better if i can or anything. and feel free to tell me im confusing or i sound condescending or rude, because its something i try to work on... i like to be approachable and someone people want to ask questions. if i ever get frustrated then 99% of the time its at myself, but if i feel like youre just making an ass out of me and disguising it as Confusion then you must understand why i get frustrated.

tl;dr Ask Me Anything, But I Might Not Be Able To Help!


HOLY SHIT HALFWAY THROUGH TYPING I REALISED IM SO HUNGRY AND ON THE VERGE OF PASSING OUT I NEED TO EAT IM SORRY THIS MGIHT MAKE EVEN LESS SENSE THAN USUAL IM GONNA GO EAT HAHA IM SORRY

[TheBaphomet]

I don't believe in a god or higher powers so the jist of it is if you are born with a penis. Guess what you are a fucking dude. You can like whatever you want being the sex you are. Animals are born to repopulate their species and to control other populations or to make sure yours still exist. The whole I was a man/women at birth but I'm the opposite sex thing is bullshit imo. But others can disagree but I really don't care.


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[Winona]

Would have to agree with this. I was born a woman. I despise lady things like makeup and dresses and doing my nails. I do not do it at all. I would rather be fishing, pulling out fish guts, and cooking in the mucky dirty woods rather than gussying up for a dance night. I better not be expected to identify as a boy because of that. I know some, albeit very few, will say I should. Some people get too much into "well you should be lady like" or "be more manly grow a beard". The fact is tons of people have times when the opposite sex shines through based on their behaviors and actions. I am a tomboy I guess you can say. Like I mentioned I would rather go camping and fishing and rough it in the woods than to ever put make up on, gussy up, and dance the night away with giggles and sparkles. Then there are men who may show that feminine side very strong. They care more about the way their hair looks than what the sports team is doing in the game. That sort of thing. We all do it in some way or another.

^ This actually reminds me of a really good blog post I read on gender identity vs. gender presentation.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

As for the rest of the discussion... I may not be making sense right now because it's past midnight and I'm bloody tired, but... eh.

On the internet, I see a lot of people using their identities as a weapon, almost. It's easy to hate something, to think something is "over the top", when the only people you see representing it are extremists who lash out at everyone who doesn't identify the same way they do. It's quite hard for me to take someone seriously when they're using their identity as cat-kin to invalidate trans people, which I've seen happen, a lot. Especially on the internet. (oh, internet....)

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I remain of the opinion that if you're not hurting other people, be whoever and whatever you want to be.

^ :takdir:

[Maki]

Mint oh no i dont disagree that im human haha. im fully aware that im human! its just another vague sort of feeling. i guess that goes hand in hand with the Coping Mechanism thing. ive never felt particularly connected with any human. even best friends, ive never felt like i relate to their experiences or their emotions or anything. although i speak and... exist. as a human being, my brain just doesnt feel like its on par with other human brains? i think thats a mental illness thing in my case, because its obvious ive got like 50000 screws loose, and as a result i just dont feel myself fitting in with other humans.
i dont get angry when people go "well uh youre obviously human man you dont have a dogs body" or anything because like. fuckin DUH. i can see that every time i look in the mirror. its more a thing i tell myself and people im comfortable with, and it makes me feel a little better about a lot of the weird shit i think and do. i dont know what the hell i think i am, i just know theres a disconnect between me and a good majority of humans.
sort of dont connect with dogs either. theyre a little hard to hold a conversation with. try as i might they just cant seem to learn english, nor can i learn dog. cats are just as difficult. insects too.
jokes aside, i do agree that you need to be human to not feel human, im not going to completely deny the fact im a human, its just. how i feel i guess.

but yeah, i doubt dogs can identify as human. its a little unfortunate if they do though, because they dont have the means of expressing it. that must really suck.
i do think they can identify as cats though. and cats can id as dogs. ive met dogs who were adopted by cat mothers when they were pups and as a result act like cats in a clumsy dog-like way in their adulthood. maybe thats not an identity thing, but its definitely really goddamn cute to see.
wouldnt doubt that dolphins have the capacity to identify as other creatures though. i hate dolphins. theyre too sentient for their own good.


ah, if it's a coping mechanism (byproduct of mental illness), would you say that feeling nonhuman is more of a thing that would be "fixed" ("fixing" mental illess, as in "curing it"/"getting rid of it" for lack of better phrasing) as opposed to an identity? do you think they are synonymous? nobody should be living with mental illness for like...forever, yknow? it shouldn't be an identity, don't you think?

i feel like im getting off topic but LOL meh

[Munna]

ah, if it's a coping mechanism (byproduct of mental illness), would you say that feeling nonhuman is more of a thing that would be "fixed" ("fixing" mental illess, as in "curing it"/"getting rid of it" for lack of better phrasing) as opposed to an identity? do you think they are synonymous? nobody should be living with mental illness for like...forever, yknow? it shouldn't be an identity, don't you think?

i feel like im getting off topic but LOL meh

I feel as though mental illness IS actually a forever thing...more or less. I don't think it's something that can be cured completely. It's like...being born with less than perfect eye sight. You can wear glasses to help, you can even go as far as getting lasik eye surgery, but you'll never be 100% the same as someone who was born with and keeps perfect vision.

[Maki]

I feel as though mental illness IS actually a forever thing...more or less. I don't think it's something that can be cured completely. It's like...being born with less than perfect eye sight. You can wear glasses to help, you can even go as far as getting lasik eye surgery, but you'll never be 100% the same as someone who was born with and keeps perfect vision.

ohh, i guess i forgot to think about psychological conditions and stuff like that. okay, that makes sense

[Munna]

ohh, i guess i forgot to think about psychological conditions and stuff like that. okay, that makes sense

I definitely agree with you on the whole "human" thing, though... Like I have honestly never heard it explained in a way that's made any sense at all to me, to be honest. :S

[Maki]

I definitely agree with you on the whole "human" thing, though... Like I have honestly never heard it explained in a way that's made any sense at all to me, to be honest. :S

i've yet to have someone animal-kin shed light on it, but yeah, that's pretty much what i think of the whole notion

[Mindfang]

ohh, i guess i forgot to think about psychological conditions and stuff like that. okay, that makes sense

yeah i was gonna say pretty much what munna said
i guess theres a chance in a few years with more therapy and stuff or just growing more as a person the identity thing will slowly change, but i think as part of a mental illness the possibility of it actually just Going Away is really slim
theres medication and stuff but theres no real cure for certain issues... i mean if people want to keep their identity all their lives then so be it, but theres also the chance that in a few years theyll be someone completely different who doesnt need their old identity, or found one more fitting for who they are at that time. illnesses change sometimes, they get worse or better. your brain is a fickle little fuck who does what it wants and you just need to go along with the ride unfortunately. its sort of like a drunk friend trying to give you directions to their house but they keep giving you the wrong directions and taking you down dead ends and shit and youre just like for fuck sake i just want rid of you for now quit dicking around asshole.

i used to think it was a childish thing really and that people would grow out of it, but you dont really grow out of mental illness. you can learn to live with it better but you never just... grow out of it. and if someone is using it to cope with abuse then even outside their abusive situation it may give them a feeling of control while they heal. healing takes different lengths of time for everyone of course, so you dont really grow out of being traumatised by abuse either. you can move past it but it never really leaves you i dont think.

some people might even keep it as familiarity. familiarity is always nice.

i dont know who ill be in a few years time. ive felt the way i do all my life, but maybe growing into A Real Life Adult will change how i feel about myself. kinda just assuming ill get worse though. catch me at 26 as a full time fursuiter. the locals call me The Yiff King and i live in a cave in the forest nearby and communicate in grunts and various animal noises.

[snappedxtiara]

i go about it like this:

if i met someone named jessica, and they said, "hey i'd rather you call me jess!" and i still called them jessica - that'd make me a huge fucking asshole. same goes for any sort of gender preference, etc. being a cis straight girl, i have no business to tell someone whether or not their feelings are valid or to even dare challenge it. so i don't. there are some things i don't understand regarding the topic, but i know it isn't their job to educate me. i do find it confusing the way some people seem to want to fight against gender roles, while also perpetuating them but again, it's not their job to justify their decisions to me or educate me on the matter.

[Tapir]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of motivation behind all the different identities is dysmorphia regardless of the gender. Not feeling like you have the right body, or right parts, is hell and I could see how people might turn to identities that seem unconventional or weird just as a way of coping with those bad feelings on the day-to-day. I really hope in the future we get to a point medically where people can have the bodies they want, and maybe that would alleviate some of the weird gender boxing that happens/these extremely specific niche identities that seem to get more and more nuanced and divided. It can leave you with not enough room to grow and be happy. I know there's so much more beyond just cis or trans, but it doesn't help that treatment options are so limited and crap depending on what your situation is...

Ex- if you are a woman but feel as though you should have a penis (NOT that you should be a man, just that you should have a penis), you wouldn't have to find some kind of gender identity to explain that you feel as though you should actually have a penis but you are still a woman and need "she" pronouns and a female name and want to be perceived as a woman, but you don't identify with having female anatomy, and you want to call your vagina a penis, and and and and and...

It's just a lot all at once. So many identities can involve disclosing all this personal shit to everyone and that's really intimidating if you're just a private person trying to live your life you know? You could just go get yourself a dick and be done with it. Bam. :butterfly:

Or, likewise, if you don't feel any gender and don't want any "gendered" parts, you could have surgery to reflect that and then just do you and it's nobody's business unless you want it to be.

Hopefully that makes sense I unno. I think about this a lot but I'm no voice of knowledge, for sure.

[Curse]

I'm just going to throw my two cents on this thread.

While I find stuff like otherkin a little confusing, as I've never personally felt anything other than a human being (although joking that I am an alien probably daily) I think that whatever makes that person feel most comfortable in their skin, they can believe they are whatever the fuck they want to be. Otherkin is the only thing that I personally will never understand because there's scientific proof that you are, in fact, a human being. But if they want to be called werekin, elfkin, etc. Do whatever makes you feel good and comfortable within yourself.

I've definitely struggled with gender my entire life. Not feeling comfortable with neither female nor male pronouns. It was only until I read the definition of "agender"* when I finally actually understood how I was. Now, looking at me you may thing "Wow, that's a fairly traditionally feminine looking person" Yeah, I present myself in the way I feel most comfortable. That doesn't mean that I'm female. That doesn't mean I identify as female. Use female pronouns? Go at it, sweetheart. I'm not going to lose my shit if someone says "her/she" to me. But it definitely doesn't feel correct to me.

I don't take pronouns as personally, but I definitely appreciate people using they/them pronouns when referring to me. It isn't to be a ~special little snowflake~ it's what makes me feel like me. I know a lot of people can't exactly understand this because they were born cisgender - you've always known what you were. From the beginning of your existence on this planet you understood what you were. But when people like me (and other non-binary/trans persons) who have been questioning their very existence their entire life finally find some kind of solace within themselves, why not just appreciate that for what it is? Respect that for what that is, because even if you don't get it - it's someone finding peace.

The only thing I can even suggest to anyone is recognize that this isn't just something that's found on tumblr. I only recently started to use tumblr, actually. Gender is a big mash of so many pronouns, ideas, everything. Even as someone who is within this grey area of gender I'm still just as confused as you are. Just respect people's pronouns, because being misgendered is a really big deal to a lot of people. Use those pronouns to the best of your ability and make sure you're aware that there's things other than FEMALE and MALE out there. I'm one of those, and I exist as much as anyone else.

It's been a while since I came out to my friends, it was while being active on ck. Not many of you know this because I never felt the need to sit down and talk about this with many people, as it's not something that's easy to bring up in conversation - nor did I feel like it was something that needed to be addressed immediately. So, for anyone who didn't know, surprise bitch~

* Agender: an identity under the nonbinary and transgender umbrella terms. Agender individuals find that they have no gender identity, although some define this more as having a gender identity that is neutral
^ for anyone who doesn't know

edit: LOL it's coming out day what a coincidence

[Mama Bear]

As others have said, to me it comes down to respect. If someone has found a sense of self that brings them happiness, and does not hurt others, then it should not be the place of me or greater society to challenge that. That said, there are a couple of points to consider:

1) When you first meet someone, they will most likely be unaware of your personal preference in things like pronoun. Many people, such as those who have posted here, realise this and do not feel personally attacked when the incorrect pronoun is used through genuine lack of awareness. Unfortunately there are those who do not respond with this maturity, and seem to think that everyone they meet should be psychically attuned to automatically know what pronouns they identify with. It's those people who make the issue harder for others, and those people whom transphobic critics use as their 'evidence' of the issue being ridiculous. It's like snappedxtiara said; my legal name is Katherine, but I prefer Kate or Katie. When people first meet me though, they use my legal name. Does it annoy me? Yes. Do I understand their error though? Yes. Once I have corrected them, if they persist in using a label that I don't like, I can feel justified in getting pissy at them, but until then they are just working from the information they have.

2) Yes there are a number of different pronouns out there these days, and different people may identify with different ones. This can, naturally, take some getting used to and be a little confusing at first. Is this so different to learning their names though? I'm a teacher, so having a hundred new faces and names is part and parcel to this. I take the time to learn their names as a matter of respect. Differentiated pronouns would just be an extension of this process. We might have 9 Daniels in the school, just like we might have 40% of students who are cis females and use "her", but learning who is a Daniel and who is a Simon shows respect for them as individuals. There are fewer pronoun options out there than there are names, but we make no qualms in using those correctly. If we actually care about others, putting in the effort to refer to them as they deem suitable is completely within reason.

3) We don't have to agree in order to utilise correct words. I might think that Abcde (pronounced "Ab-sid-ee") is a really stupid name for a kid, but that doesn't mean I'm going to call them Sally instead. It's not my place to determine who they are.

[littlespacecase]

I honestly like the additional labels. If you don't like them you don't have to use them, but as long as it makes people feel like they can finalyl belong I don't really see the harm.

[Cinnamoroll]

Exactly. I agree it has gotten out of hand, and the internet, especially Tumblr, has ruined this.

It blows my mind sometimes. Like I don't care what you are, or how you feel. We. Are. All. People. So who cares what you do with your life, it's your life and you don't need to label anything because it shouldn't matter to anyone else what you do personally.

Of course I respect people and will use their preferred pronouns and such, but they also need to remember to be communicating what they prefer so people don't get it confused and then said person gets offended. I don't have anything against anyone who is going through gender identity crises. They can be whoever they want. They just need to remember not everyone is in the know on the terms because these terms are constantly being created, and not everyone will understand.

This whole topic is very messy right now across the Internet.

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[JaimeLannister]

My sister is transgendered- she was born my brother but says she has always felt she was a woman and was always uncomfortable as a man. I support her; she has been there for me and we had a good relationship growing up. She didn't need anyone to tell her who she was, she always knew. When she came out about this, about 10-11 years ago when I was about 19-20, while I have never judged people (I have always been live and let live- do what you want as long as you aren't hurting others) I didn't get it at first. I became more educated about this subject and realized people have complex gender identities in some cases (it has always been simple for me; I was born male and have always felt male). I support trans people, they aren't hurting anyone and should have the same rights as anyone else.

As far as all these genders go: I think there are probably more than two, but I have heard some pretty out there stuff (trans race? I guess I never believed in people of different races being different just because their race so it is a little harder for me to understand). As I said I believe in live and let live, I wouldn't oppress anyone, but I don't know about some of the stuff coming out on sites like tumblr....

[Mindfang]

no offence but like
how can you "not care about how people identify as long as theyre happy" but think neopronouns and identities outside the binary are "ridiculous tumblr labels"

like how can you be all for someones happiness but ready and willing to police their identity which directly connects to their happiness?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Misha]

Never gave a shit never will. Be you and I'll be me.

[hissi]

people are getting way too upset over teenagers and young adults experimenting with their identities/coping with mental illnesses/disabilities like...honestly how does it affect you in any way that someone has "my pronouns are x" or "i identify with x" on their page or whatever. peoples' identities/illnesses/disabilities/genitals aren't any of your business so there's no reason for you to go out of your way to make it your business by harassing them or making them feel like shit about themselves w/threads like this when honestly all they're asking for is basic human decency and respect.

also jsyk a lot of the "ridiculous sjw" stuff you hear about is just stuff written by troll blogs (i.e. "i'm toiletkin!!!! if you use toilets you're oppressing me!!!! uwuwuwu")

[Sci_Girl]

no offence but like
how can you "not care about how people identify as long as theyre happy" but think neopronouns and identities outside the binary are "ridiculous tumblr labels"

like how can you be all for someones happiness but ready and willing to police their identity which directly connects to their happiness?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Simple. If person X says they identity as (insert term here) and person Y thinks "okay, that does not hurt me in any way" then the issue of not caring is settled. It is not a deeper vengeful meaning, it is simply "go ahead and be what you want/identify as what you want if it makes you happy". That does not mean person Y cannot think "well identifying as a rock is weird". They are going to think what they want but they can still be perfectly alright with person X having that identity.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------


people are getting way too upset over teenagers and young adults experimenting with their identities/coping with mental illnesses/disabilities like...honestly how does it affect you in any way that someone has "my pronouns are x" or "i identify with x" on their page or whatever. peoples' identities/illnesses/disabilities/genitals aren't any of your business so there's no reason for you to go out of your way to make it your business by harassing them or making them feel like shit about themselves w/threads like this when honestly all they're asking for is basic human decency and respect.

also jsyk a lot of the "ridiculous sjw" stuff you hear about is just stuff written by troll blogs (i.e. "i'm toiletkin!!!! if you use toilets you're oppressing me!!!! uwuwuwu")



Right now where I live in Edmonton some parent is up in arms with the Catholic school board because her 7 or 8 year old son (cannot remember exact age), who now dresses as a girl, was told he could not use the girls washroom. Now my tax dollars are being spent on continual meetings that errupt into full on yelling arguments between the school board, the city, and parents. That is how it affects an individual. There is no resolution to this particular case anytime soon either. Had the child been able to just use the washroom then it would have all been avoided. Not my problem not my concern until something like my tax dollars are spent wastefully on something that could easily be resolved through acceptance. However many issues going on with this particular case. The child is very very young (it could be argued not saying I agree but it could be argued that the kid is still just a kid and needs more time to find who they are) and the fact that the Catholic school system is involved. They nit pick everything. So it is a unique case but it does affect me as a tax paying individual.

[Guy]

I looked into the gender/sexuality thing the other day and found some of the labels ridiculous (a pansexual polyamorous cisgendered sponge? wat) but at the end of the day I don't really care :p People should just do whatever makes 'em feel good about themselves

[SnoLeopard]

If something/someone makes you happy go with it, why are all the labels necessary, do we really need to apply labels to every person or situation? I feel that each individual is entitled to do as they please and they should be accepted for who/what they are and identify with.

[JaimeLannister]

As mentioned above: when it comes down to using a restroom or something of a similar nature it gets a little more complicated. My sis is trans, uses the women's restroom, and I'm happy it doesn't seem to be a problem. Some people get upset though- I think someone who is truly trans does belong in a women's restroom. At what point do they cross that line though? when they come out as trans? when they start hormonal therapy? when they have the operation? (my sister has gone all the way through those steps) Some women would feel uncomfortable if a trans male-to-female who just started the process goes into the woman's restroom. Not even saying that is right (I'm actually not 100% sure- I respect and believe the trans male-to-female but some women would be uncomfortable) it just is.

One issue there has been huge issues with in my state: trans people in the state prison. There are some trans male-to-female women in the mens state prison (who identify and take hormones but have not had the surgery and can't get it while incarcerated). All but one (I think there is only 4 or so) live a live of being locked in a cell 23 hours a day, only allowed out to shower/use the phone/go outside in their own section for one hour a day; they are kept alone so they have no real human interaction. This isn't done due to disciplinary problems like most inmates on this status long term, but because they are in protective custody. Such treatment causes severe mental health issues and is a living hell. They can get a TV after 6 months of this status but that isn't the same as seeing people face to face and if they don't have a family member to send like almost $200 they won't even get that (and even with their unique situation the unit rules making them wait 6 months are still in place). They are cuffed every time allowed out (unit rules). The only trans woman who isn't at such a status, well lets just say you don't mess with them (but you can't expect everyone to be so fierce). If they don't have the surgery before being incarcerated (which I am almost certain then allows them to go to the womans facility) this is their fate most likely. They haven't done worse than other inmates in general population to get there. They have no opportunity to be in rehabilitation programs and other activities other inmates participate in. In my mind this is inhumane treatment (probably for anyone but especially for someone being trans). An example of such a situation as the restroom in the extreme. Is this due to societies judgment of them (that some other solution isn't completely taking care of the situation (there is a facility for trans inmates but I believe it is federal))? This was quite a bit ago now and I hope it has changed (but like 7 years ago, not THAT long and I don't know what has happened now).

Now there are some identities I don't 100% understand (like if you identify as a rock) but such treatment of anyone is unacceptable and I would never personally subject a human being to negative treatment because how they identify. Live and let live.

[gilly777]

I mostly agree with you. I think people should have the right to define themselves the way they want and not be judged for it. However trying to use it to claim that you are an oppressed minority when there is no basis to that claim or to force other people into those tiny boxes and label them is not acceptable and it happens to often.

[Hawk]

My only problem with the ludicrous amount of labels for gender is when they try to shove their way into Trans issues. I'm trans myself, and experiencing crippling dysphoria turned my life into hell for a long time. I tried /everything/ I could to just be a cis girl, thinking that as I got older I'd just suddenly get being a girl. I tried to hang around girls, wear dresses and style my hair. It never happened, all my friends but one were men, I stop trying to be a girl and just did what came naturally. I fucking walk with a swagger that frankly I think looks ridiculous but it's unconcious.

All of that is an experience that isn't foreign to a lot of Transmen/women. Sure it's fine to find your personality and become an independent person who has their own sexuality and gender. At the same time if you don't suffer with the issues of trans people, then don't force yourself into that community and pretend that you speak for it. Helping transfolks get the rights and help they need is A+ but coopting their struggles as an accessory without the hardship is a big no-no for me.

Thats all I have to say on the identity games that people play these days.

[Lincoln]

My only problem with the ludicrous amount of labels for gender is when they try to shove their way into Trans issues. I'm trans myself, and experiencing crippling dysphoria turned my life into hell for a long time. I tried /everything/ I could to just be a cis girl, thinking that as I got older I'd just suddenly get being a girl. I tried to hang around girls, wear dresses and style my hair. It never happened, all my friends but one were men, I stop trying to be a girl and just did what came naturally. I fucking walk with a swagger that frankly I think looks ridiculous but it's unconcious.

All of that is an experience that isn't foreign to a lot of Transmen/women. Sure it's fine to find your personality and become an independent person who has their own sexuality and gender. At the same time if you don't suffer with the issues of trans people, then don't force yourself into that community and pretend that you speak for it. Helping transfolks get the rights and help they need is A+ but coopting their struggles as an accessory without the hardship is a big no-no for me.

Thats all I have to say on the identity games that people play these days.

I have to agree. I am a cis male, but I think it would seriously derail discussions of equality and overcoming adversity in the LGBTQ community if the random groups started popping up declaring themselves discriminated against. I understand that we don't know everything about human sexuality, but until these groups have faced the kinds of systematic discrimination faced by Gay and Tans people, I just don't see how they can try to gain legitimacy.

I think it's fine if people on tumblr want to call themselves 'demiboy' or 'aquagirl'. But I think it's entirely different when I see my straight facebook friend make a [high effort] post about how Demiboys are being marginalized in the workplace. Like, no one knows what that is, who the fuck is discriminating against you?

[Set]

I have to agree. I am a cis male, but I think it would seriously derail discussions of equality and overcoming adversity in the LGBTQ community if the random groups started popping up declaring themselves discriminated against. I understand that we don't know everything about human sexuality, but until these groups have faced the kinds of systematic discrimination faced by Gay and Tans people, I just don't see how they can try to gain legitimacy.

I think it's fine if people on tumblr want to call themselves 'demiboy' or 'aquagirl'. But I think it's entirely different when I see my straight facebook friend make a [high effort] post about how Demiboys are being marginalized in the workplace. Like, no one knows what that is, who the fuck is discriminating against you?

Exactly! I mean absolutely no offense, but I didn't even know what cis was until I watched South Park and kinda looked into it. How could I discriminate against something I didn't even know existed? And honestly as far as I'm concerned, as long as you're happy in your own skin, everything's fine and people should relax. Unless you're Ed Gein and you're trying to wear other people's skin. Hmm..
Anyway, in all seriousness, I think this whole thing is being blown up so people aren't looking at the big picture of what's ACTUALLY happening. While we're fucking fighting about babies being circumcised, freeing the nipple, who uses what bathroom when and why, there's a shitshow happening in our own country. Terrorism is in the red zone, man. They told us they'd hit Orlando and they did. They also said they're gonna hit Washington D.C. soon, like, wtf? Nobody's worried about this? Nobody wants to worry about a guy shooting gay people, they want to worry that the people that got shot were gay? Holy shit, like I totally understand, human life is extremely valuable and that was a disgusting thing that occurred. Mass murder is disgusting. And it's going to keep happening until we pull our heads out of our asses and start protecting our country. I'm devastated that people would rather talk about Trump and wanting to kill him rather than talking about how much SHIT is being poured into our ocean each day? Ever heard of that pile of trash floating around the size of an island?
I feel like this is exactly what they want. The terrorists. They know the extremely left liberals would go into an uproar and totally block out any news of what they may be doing with all this bullshit about discrimination. because as far as I'm concerned, this wasn't a problem until now. :| I feel as though they will attack when our attention is completely off of them.. And the pope is going to be in D.C. with the Hillsong Chuch(i think it's the hillsong church), and what better way to attack an opposing religion AND nation at the same time by attacking their religious leader AND the capital?

""In the 330 cases we've examined since September 11, we found 80 percent of mass murders are US citizens""
Oh, yeah, but they leave out that most of these US citizens have pledged allegiance to ISIS... Or they were mentally ill and had NO help.

Which actually reminds me. Wtf are we doing about mental health? Like Dylan and Eric in Columbine; could that have been prevented if maybe we gave a shit more about mental disorders and shit like that? Being someone who has a mental disorder, all they do is put you on pills and hope for the best. The human race should be past that.. Why can't we help each other? What's so wrong with that?

And before you go off calling me a dumbass for blaming it all on terrorism: I'm not blaming all of the shit that's wrong with our country on terrorism, I'm saying that is the threat we are facing right now. It's a REAL threat and they are killing Americans every fucking day, man. And we sit idle as Russia goes into Syria. Putin wanted obama to give him a list of places that were friends with the US and shouldn't be raided, but he won't, and he's forcing Putin's hand. It's not good. I swear, he's a muslim himself.

And no, not all muslims are terrorists, and not all terrorists are muslims; and we were founded on immigrants; but we weren't founded on immigrants who hated us and were trying to fucking kill us. UGH. Idek, man.

[Mindfang]

im too tired to go in depth but looking at the bigger picture derails the subject at hand and is a really half-baked attempt to do so at that.

trans issues are their own issues, this has nothing to do with whats happening with the economy or school shootings or whatever? just because theres bigger issues doesnt mean we shouldnt care about Trans issues? uh

[Set]

It derails the subject? Oh, I'm so sorry that there are more important things to worry about than which bathroom you use. You're absolutely right, "trans issues are their own issues." Let's keep it like that and leave them the fuck alone and treat them like everyone else. Thanks for the "half baked" reply, fam. And nah, we can care about trans issues all we want, but what the fuck is it doing? Gay marriage is legal, we have the same rights, and if you commit hate speech you're put in jail. All that shit is over, so isn't it time to fucking move on? People like you are what's holding society back by coming up with bullshit and saying "oh look at you derailing such an important subject with shit that clearly isn't as important as which bathroom this person uses that literally has NOTHING to do with me", as to where if people would actually give a shit about what's going on? It's not just the US, it's everywhere LOL

Thanks for that comment though, I figured someone would be unhappy with what I had to say. This is the debate zone after all. cheers :very_drunk:

[Mindfang]

... anyway

edit: actually I just... Should mention that this bathroom thing very much does affect me, as a Trans person. i don't want people like YOU derailing issues that affect ME just because YOU don't feel they're important. Being told my problems aren't important because there's bigger issues is incredibly hurtful.

[Sci_Girl]

It derails the subject? Oh, I'm so sorry that there are more important things to worry about than which bathroom you use. You're absolutely right, "trans issues are their own issues." Let's keep it like that and leave them the fuck alone and treat them like everyone else. Thanks for the "half baked" reply, fam. And nah, we can care about trans issues all we want, but what the fuck is it doing? Gay marriage is legal, we have the same rights, and if you commit hate speech you're put in jail. All that shit is over, so isn't it time to fucking move on? People like you are what's holding society back by coming up with bullshit and saying "oh look at you derailing such an important subject with shit that clearly isn't as important as which bathroom this person uses that literally has NOTHING to do with me", as to where if people would actually give a shit about what's going on? It's not just the US, it's everywhere LOL

Thanks for that comment though, I figured someone would be unhappy with what I had to say. This is the debate zone after all. cheers :very_drunk:

Gay marriage is not legal in the US. It is somewhat legal, it is being accepted in certain areas. The reason it is not entirely legal is because many Americans are living in the past. The same past you said should be "fucking moved on" from. The reason is yourself. Not you personally but the US as a whole as "yourself". They created their own problem, are sticking with it in many parts of the Country and will not budge and smarten up with other individuals who are living in the now.

Those living in the now who have moved on do not care about bathroom issues, they accept individuals are different. They are saying big deal move on as it does not affect them. They are the ones who do not think LGBTQ issues are a grand issue because they have already acknowledged it as an issue, accepted it, and went on with their lives.

Terrorism, red zone threats, and garbage piles in the ocean are not associated with this topic of LGBTQ issues. If you want to write about a conspiracy of no one paying attention to the red zone terrorism threat then by all means make a separate topic. Until then try not to derail to a separate subject.

[Misha]

Gay marriage is not legal in the US. It is somewhat legal, it is being accepted in certain areas. The reason it is not entirely legal is because many Americans are living in the past. The same past you said should be "fucking moved on" from. The reason is yourself. Not you personally but the US as a whole as "yourself". They created their own problem, are sticking with it in many parts of the Country and will not budge and smarten up with other individuals who are living in the now.

Those living in the now who have moved on do not care about bathroom issues, they accept individuals are different. They are saying big deal move on as it does not affect them. They are the ones who do not think LGBTQ issues are a grand issue because they have already acknowledged it as an issue, accepted it, and went on with their lives.

Terrorism, red zone threats, and garbage piles in the ocean are not associated with this topic of LGBTQ issues. If you want to write about a conspiracy of no one paying attention to the red zone terrorism threat then by all means make a separate topic. Until then try not to derail to a separate subject.

Gay marriage is very much legal in the US. Finding a pastor or whatever the case may be for your religious views to perform the wedding is where the issue arises.


Anyway, this is a debate, not a war zone. Keep your insulting and personal comments to yourself and move on. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but I see this debate quickly going off track and turning into personal attacks. That's not what a debate is. That's a Facebook / Tumblr version of an opinion being keyboard fucked into being something believed to be fact. Unless you can cite sources and facts to back up your argument, it holds no merit.

[Sci_Girl]

Gay marriage is very much legal in the US. Finding a pastor or whatever the case may be for your religious views to perform the wedding is where the issue arises.


Anyway, this is a debate, not a war zone. Keep your insulting and personal comments to yourself and move on. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but I see this debate quickly going off track and turning into personal attacks. That's not what a debate is. That's a Facebook / Tumblr version of an opinion being keyboard fucked into being something believed to be fact. Unless you can cite sources and facts to back up your argument, it holds no merit.

Oh jeez yes I just checked. Legal all across the US as of June 26, 2015. 2015. My apologies for thinking some of the Country was still stuck in the past. Just some people are still stuck.

[Misha]

Oh jeez yes I just checked. Legal all across the US as of June 26, 2015. 2015. My apologies for thinking some of the Country was still stuck in the past. Just some people are still stuck.


Yeah it's just the churches/mosques/synagogues that are in the past. Well obviously a crap ton of citizens too, but their opinions hold no weight upon gay marriage.

[Lincoln]

im too tired to go in depth but looking at the bigger picture derails the subject at hand and is a really half-baked attempt to do so at that.

trans issues are their own issues, this has nothing to do with whats happening with the economy or school shootings or whatever? just because theres bigger issues doesnt mean we shouldnt care about Trans issues? uh

Well, I think some people use the rhetoric more along the lines of, "This shouldn't even be an issue. No one should care where trans people use the restroom, so just let it go.'

That's how I feel at least. Who gives a fuck where a trans person uses the restroom? Trans =/= pedophile. Trans =/= child molester.

I understand the dehumanizing effect that restrooms can have on trans people. Believe me, I understand. But when I say something like "that's not even an issue", what I mean is "people who are attacking trans and unisex restrooms don't even have an argument, let them pee where they want".

[vj87]

Its a bit ridiculous really. Options that would make sense...male/female/none/other(state)

I was told once I am something called a demi girl?! Erm no I am quite happy to class myself as a female thanks

---------- Post added at 02:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

As for restrooms, I don't really see why we can't just have communal restrooms and be done with it.

[Huntera]

Typically if someone wants a specific label to their gender or sexuality then I won't question it and just respect it. Non-binary labels on sexuality and genders are fine, I don't see anything wrong with them. I will use their preferred pronouns and respect their decisions. If it makes them happy then why not? None of my business anyways, it's not my sexuality or gender.

Personally I don't label my own sexuality, if someone asks I'll give them the closest thing to it but I dislike labeling myself, it's just more like: I'll like whoever it is regardless of what they call themselves, just so long as I'm attracted to them :) But that's just me.

[percyjk23]

I agree with first post

[Urbex]

I'd have to agree with the OP. It's getting ridiculous. Since everyone is getting offended for each other with gender pronouns I'll just refer to everyone as "that person".....wait, maybe that will offend people who don't self-identify as people and self-identify as a couch or some shit. (Low key, I saw an episode of My Strange Addiction where the girl was obsessed with pretending to be furniture.)

Honestly, people create more labels for their microsexuality just to avoid the more popular labels. It's all confusing and pointless to me

[athron]

If I had a dollar for every gender that exists, I'd have $2

[jongeh]

With all due respect, not even going to read the original post because I know where it is going, but this whole gender identification issue is off the chain. Do you have a penis or a vagina? You can have the op if you want, then reask yourself the same question.

I am sick of this liberal ideology!

[Decepticon]

I'm gonna throw my two cents here even though I'm terrified of speaking my opinion in public.
I also apologize if I say something extremely ignorant, I'm still learning stuff myself.
I wasn't going to post this but my friend told me I should lmao
btw this is probably obvious but it doesn't hurt to emphasize that "you" is "you" in general like everyone/anyone on this planet 'k

I have to agree that "imposing" a gender on someone is Bad like saying "you're obviously a demiboy" when the person in question does not identify as a demiboy isn't nice. The same goes with "if you have a penis you're a man". Gender identity is part of someone as an individual, how they experience themselves and the world around them. It should not have to do with anyone else but themselves, honestly. I mean, if someone says their gender is X and their pronouns are y/z how does that affect your life? Other than having to think a little bit before writing or talking to avoid automatically writing down/speaking a pronoun that the person doesn't use, I mean. It's like it's been said multiple times on the thread before: if someone is named Samantha but likes being called Sammy, you'll be a decent human being and call them Sammy. It's not that hard.

Also, does it hurt so much to write "xyr" if someone asks you to? I mean, sure you can think to yourself that this is "a weird pronoun" and "not real", but trying to use it or asking how to use it (which as far as I know people are okay with), especially if it's someone you don't talk often, someone who is a complete stranger to you on the internet, does it really hurt so bad? Do your fingers feel like they're gonna fall from your hands? Do your neighbors laugh at you for being nice and respecting other people's pronouns? What would your parents think of you! How dare you be nice to people!

I can see how it can be problematic when people use bathrooms when your only options are female or male. You should technically be able to use whichever one you feel like fits you best without having to worry about other people, but unfortunately that's not how it works because we people still have much to learn. A gender neutral bathroom would be nice, but people will always find a way to criticize it (or on an extreme scenario that I don't know if it's likely to happen, to exploit the damn thing to do bad things). Other than that, gender identity shouldn't be an issue at all. Does it really hurt you so much to accept the fact that there's more to the world than what you know and/or believe? You don't have to understand it all and be The Gender Expert, you just have to accept that it exists, that people are all different and that you should be nice to everyone, disregarding whatever you believe on. Of course, if you're willing to do some reading and some research to understand gender that's really nice of you too.

Also a bit off-topic but not too much, I always see people complaining about Tumblr but like... most of the time people complain of things that are clearly a troll like "I'm plantkin and if you step on grass you're oppressing me" or "I identify as a sponge and if you use one to do dishes/shower you're being spongefobic". I mean it's not hard to guess that this is a troll?? And other times people complain of teenagers that are still learning shit because they're still young and inexperienced. I mean, were you the "oh so perfect angel, the perfect example of what teenagers should be" when you were like 13 or 15? If it bothers you that much try to teach, explain and guide them. If they don't want to be taught shit then leave them be, one day they'll learn and they'll look back and be like "oh man, I was such a piece of shit when I was younger" like everyone who is still alive and aging and looking back to when they were younger.

Anyway sorry if I offended anyone, I swear it wasn't my intention.
Also if you see something blatantly wrong pls do point it out to me kindly and I'll be sure to correct myself for future occasions.

[Mindfang]

If I had a dollar for every gender that exists, I'd have $2

nah mate youd have $0 cos the base concept of gender aint fuckin exist!!

[jongeh]

I'm gonna throw my two cents here even though I'm terrified of speaking my opinion in public.
I also apologize if I say something extremely ignorant, I'm still learning stuff myself.
I wasn't going to post this but my friend told me I should lmao
btw this is probably obvious but it doesn't hurt to emphasize that "you" is "you" in general like everyone/anyone on this planet 'k

I have to agree that "imposing" a gender on someone is Bad like saying "you're obviously a demiboy" when the person in question does not identify as a demiboy isn't nice. The same goes with "if you have a penis you're a man". Gender identity is part of someone as an individual, how they experience themselves and the world around them. It should not have to do with anyone else but themselves, honestly. I mean, if someone says their gender is X and their pronouns are y/z how does that affect your life? Other than having to think a little bit before writing or talking to avoid automatically writing down/speaking a pronoun that the person doesn't use, I mean. It's like it's been said multiple times on the thread before: if someone is named Samantha but likes being called Sammy, you'll be a decent human being and call them Sammy. It's not that hard.

Also, does it hurt so much to write "xyr" if someone asks you to? I mean, sure you can think to yourself that this is "a weird pronoun" and "not real", but trying to use it or asking how to use it (which as far as I know people are okay with), especially if it's someone you don't talk often, someone who is a complete stranger to you on the internet, does it really hurt so bad? Do your fingers feel like they're gonna fall from your hands? Do your neighbors laugh at you for being nice and respecting other people's pronouns? What would your parents think of you! How dare you be nice to people!

I can see how it can be problematic when people use bathrooms when your only options are female or male. You should technically be able to use whichever one you feel like fits you best without having to worry about other people, but unfortunately that's not how it works because we people still have much to learn. A gender neutral bathroom would be nice, but people will always find a way to criticize it (or on an extreme scenario that I don't know if it's likely to happen, to exploit the damn thing to do bad things). Other than that, gender identity shouldn't be an issue at all. Does it really hurt you so much to accept the fact that there's more to the world than what you know and/or believe? You don't have to understand it all and be The Gender Expert, you just have to accept that it exists, that people are all different and that you should be nice to everyone, disregarding whatever you believe on. Of course, if you're willing to do some reading and some research to understand gender that's really nice of you too.

Also a bit off-topic but not too much, I always see people complaining about Tumblr but like... most of the time people complain of things that are clearly a troll like "I'm plantkin and if you step on grass you're oppressing me" or "I identify as a sponge and if you use one to do dishes/shower you're being spongefobic". I mean it's not hard to guess that this is a troll?? And other times people complain of teenagers that are still learning shit because they're still young and inexperienced. I mean, were you the "oh so perfect angel, the perfect example of what teenagers should be" when you were like 13 or 15? If it bothers you that much try to teach, explain and guide them. If they don't want to be taught shit then leave them be, one day they'll learn and they'll look back and be like "oh man, I was such a piece of shit when I was younger" like everyone who is still alive and aging and looking back to when they were younger.

Anyway sorry if I offended anyone, I swear it wasn't my intention.
Also if you see something blatantly wrong pls do point it out to me kindly and I'll be sure to correct myself for future occasions.

Firstly, don't worry, I don't think you have offended anyone. Everyone has their own opinion and I think most people here will respect that.

However, I do not understand how someone could impose a gender upon someone else. It is a simple fact of nature, you are either male or female ( although I know in some rare cases, an individual can have genitalia from of both sexes.) If a boy was growing up and he felt like he wanted to be a girl and he was a 'girl born in a boys body' then there is always the option to have a sex change later down the line. These kinds of operations have become more 'mainstream' with Bruce(Caitlyn) Jenner having had it done and a few other (I hate to say it) influential people. These kinds of people fuel this debate and they are dangerous as they do not realise that many young people look up to them and conform to their actions without fully understanding themselves.

This comes onto my next point - this whole transgender identification phenomenon has been manufactured and one could even argue manufactured for gain - exactly what, I am not sure of. The reason why I call the above influential people dangerous is that nowadays you see in the papers or on the online news sites more and more children that suddenly come out as 'not conforming to sexual role stereotypes' and get fast tracked on various concoctions of drugs to drastically alter their natural hormone cycles in order to become more feminine or masculine. Kids these days are constantly being bombarded with social media, telling them what to do and what not to do, how to act, how to look, how to speak etc and not being given a chance to think for themselves. there was a documentary done by Louis Theroux a year or so back on the BBC about transgender children. It is a great watch and if you are interested in this topic then you should go and watch it - it will definitely get some cogs turning. There have been numerous studies that show that as a matter of fact, children who believe they were born in the wrong body actually grow out of that belief by the time they hit puberty. But you have media and celebrities these days saying that it is not wrong to think this and basically, if you think you are a girl in a boys body then no matter your age, you should 'follow your heart.'

I am only 23 but I remember growing up there wasn't facebook and the internet wasn't as developed as it is today. I was out with my friends, climbing trees and doing dumb shit like that. Nowadays all you see are children attatched at the hip to their ipads and smartphones. The point I am trying to make is that all of this that we see today is totally manufactured - it is a form of social engineering, if facebook wants to push an agenda that all children are asexual until 18, you can bet your boots that it will start happening. I know I may have gone a little off-topic but people do not understand the extent to which social media is influencing and controlling people's lives.

As for 'gender neutral' toilets. Well in my opinion that is a complete no-no. This is simply due to violation if privacy. You need to think of the amount of these transgender people there are compared to cisgender (the opposite to transgender.) There are say 999 cisgender people for every transgender, infact that number is probably way out and there are probably many more cisgender for any single transgender. That means, on average you need to upset 999 people to appease a single transgender person. Lets say 100 out of those 999 cisgender people were not uncomfortable using a toilet with a transgender - that still means you would have to upset 899 people to appease one. In my opinion, if a transgender person feels uncomfortable walking into the same toilets as the same sex as them, they should either use a cubicle or just use the toilets meant for mothers to change their kids nappies or disabled people.

Really, gender has nothing to do with it if you really think about it. Who says that if you are a boy you cannot like the same things as females or vice versa? I have seen many male cross dressers and to be honest with you I couldn't give a f. It is only when people start pushing their beliefs upon me that I get annoyed. These people feel guilt and opression when they really aren't opressed and they need to get over it rather than coining another term as 'transgender' and using that to peddle their agendas!

[Mophead]

Way I see it is like this.

The last however many thousands of years, people have never tried to identify as "demiboy" or whatever.
It's been straight male and female gender.

The scientific advancement that discovered these new genders?
The internet.

These new "genders" didn't exist fifty years ago.
They barely existed ten years ago.

I'm all for calling yourself what you want, it doesn't phase me. But if you have a penis, you can use the mens restroom. If you have a vagina, you can use the female restroom.

99% of society shouldn't have to bend to what a group of people want because they said so.

Like everything else on the internet - Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean it's true.

[potatoespotate]

Would sorting out the bathrooms based on "sex" rather than "gender" just solve the bathroom problem then? Like Mophead says, if you have a vag, use the female bathrooms and if you have a penis use a male's bathroom. If you have both then go ahead and choose since you actually do possess both.

I honestly don't give a shit how people identify, if I like you and we're close, cool, I'll call you however you like, but if you're a stranger/some hi&bye acquaintance, I honestly don't give a crap since we probs wouldn't be interacting much anyway and it's wayyyyy too much effort for someone I barely know/care about.

[Foxglove]

Gender is also a social construct that's currently changing due to a cultural shift. If people consider themselves something other than strictly male/female, I'll respect that. It doesn't bother me at all, and I can definitely understand where they're coming from. It's just difficult to remember all the different ways to refer to different types of people but I'll try my best to oblige. Just, to the really fiery people out there, please don't crucify or judge me if I mess up :x

I'm personally fine with the male/female construct (the old fashioned he/she thing which I admit doesn't really account for the variation of different types of people who exist in our world but is often applicable and is less complicated), and I just feel in the field of health and medicine it's important to preserve that binary (maybe add an "Other" option if you were, say, born with both sexual organs/etc, but it's strictly for cases where biologically you don't fall into either the male or female category) because different health concerns can be relevant depending on your organs, and the gender you were assigned at birth, etc.



Edit: I do feel having 90 different gender constructs on a website is kind of excessive though. There needs to be enough that people feel they're generally accounted for, but not so many that the general public won't even be able to really remember what each of the 90 ones specifically means.

The point of having these gender constructs is so that we all, upon hearing the label someone assigned to themselves, immediately get a better understanding of who the person is as an individual. And if there are too many constructs for the general public to memorize all 90 and be able to recall immediately and without error, then that's a problem. Maybe a solution would be larger categories with further subcategories in case people want to get more specific (eg. Continent -> Country -> State/Province/County/etc)?

The constructs shouldn't have to identify the person to a T, anyways. There's a reason we spend time with each other to get to know each other. We shouldn't just immediately know everything about a person upon first glance. There is always more to everyone than just their labels.

[Lincoln]

Gender is also a social construct that's currently changing due to a cultural shift. If people consider themselves something other than strictly male/female, I'll respect that. It doesn't bother me at all, and I can definitely understand where they're coming from. It's just difficult to remember all the different ways to refer to different types of people but I'll try my best to oblige. Just, to the really fiery people out there, please don't crucify or judge me if I mess up :x

I'm personally fine with the male/female construct (the old fashioned he/she thing which I admit doesn't really account for the variation of different types of people who exist in our world but is often applicable and is less complicated), and I just feel in the field of health and medicine it's important to preserve that binary (maybe add an "Other" option if you were, say, born with both sexual organs/etc, but it's strictly for cases where biologically you don't fall into either the male or female category) because different health concerns can be relevant depending on your organs, and the gender you were assigned at birth, etc.



Edit: I do feel having 90 different gender constructs on a website is kind of excessive though. There needs to be enough that people feel they're generally accounted for, but not so many that the general public won't even be able to really remember what each of the 90 ones specifically means.

The point of having these gender constructs is so that we all, upon hearing the label someone assigned to themselves, immediately get a better understanding of who the person is as an individual. And if there are too many constructs for the general public to memorize all 90 and be able to recall immediately and without error, then that's a problem.

The constructs shouldn't have to identify the person to a T, anyways. There's a reason we spend time with each other to get to know each other. We shouldn't just immediately know everything about a person upon first glance. There is always more to everyone than just their labels.

I feel the exact same way. There's a difference between falling outside of the traditional gender groupings and, for example, "identifying as a wolf". I think the latter really derails discussions of genuine discrimination in the real world.

[jongeh]

Gender is also a social construct that's currently changing due to a cultural shift. If people consider themselves something other than strictly male/female, I'll respect that. It doesn't bother me at all, and I can definitely understand where they're coming from. It's just difficult to remember all the different ways to refer to different types of people but I'll try my best to oblige. Just, to the really fiery people out there, please don't crucify or judge me if I mess up :x

I'm personally fine with the male/female construct (the old fashioned he/she thing which I admit doesn't really account for the variation of different types of people who exist in our world but is often applicable and is less complicated), and I just feel in the field of health and medicine it's important to preserve that binary (maybe add an "Other" option if you were, say, born with both sexual organs/etc, but it's strictly for cases where biologically you don't fall into either the male or female category) because different health concerns can be relevant depending on your organs, and the gender you were assigned at birth, etc.



Edit: I do feel having 90 different gender constructs on a website is kind of excessive though. There needs to be enough that people feel they're generally accounted for, but not so many that the general public won't even be able to really remember what each of the 90 ones specifically means.

The point of having these gender constructs is so that we all, upon hearing the label someone assigned to themselves, immediately get a better understanding of who the person is as an individual. And if there are too many constructs for the general public to memorize all 90 and be able to recall immediately and without error, then that's a problem. Maybe a solution would be larger categories with further subcategories in case people want to get more specific (eg. Continent -> Country -> State/Province/County/etc)?

The constructs shouldn't have to identify the person to a T, anyways. There's a reason we spend time with each other to get to know each other. We shouldn't just immediately know everything about a person upon first glance. There is always more to everyone than just their labels.

Gender itself is not a social construct. The roles that genders play is a social construct.

[Foxglove]

Gender itself is not a social construct. The roles that genders play is a social construct.

Just Google "gender social construct" :P It's a view that is definitely popularly embraced by many people and I think it's a good idea to distinguish between biological sex and the social construct of gender.
"Sex" (biological marker) is not socially constructed.
But, as for gender... here is a quote off "othersociologist.com/sociology-of-gender/": "Gender, like all social identities, is socially constructed. Social constructionism is one of the key theories sociologists use to put gender into historical and cultural ..." and Wikipedia says similarly as well, as do the sociology professors at UC Berkeley who I took classes with, and so on...

*Edit: I know there are many out there who say that even biological sex IS a social construct, which ok I can see that, since I feel like there is room for more categories to better acknowledge the state of a person's body based on whether they're trans, what have you... but just for the sake of simplicity of explaining :x (We still do need to have certain discrete categories that make it easier for medical personnel to address the health concerns and needs of your body.)

** Edit #2: I'm definitely not an expert in this area and I still have so much more to learn about this topic and I may be wrong about things as well, but I'm very open minded to it all

[jongeh]

Just Google "gender social construct" :P It's a view that is definitely popularly embraced by many people and I think it's a good idea to distinguish between biological sex and the social construct of gender.
"Sex" (biological marker) is not socially constructed.
But, as for gender... here is a quote off "othersociologist.com/sociology-of-gender/": "Gender, like all social identities, is socially constructed. Social constructionism is one of the key theories sociologists use to put gender into historical and cultural ..." and Wikipedia says similarly as well, as do the sociology professors at UC Berkeley who I took classes with, and so on...

Ah, fair enough, hairy muff. I was under the impression gender meant sex, but it looks like it has been hijacked;

1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"

I would be interested to see the definition of gender from a 50. Year old dictionary however.
Some definitions of gender are the sex of a person , but the point I was trying to make is that under the definition of gender being sex, gender is not a social construct . We were on the same page but reading it differently.

[Foxglove]

Ah, fair enough, hairy muff. I was under the impression gender meant sex, but it looks like it has been hijacked;

1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"

I would be interested to see the definition of gender from a 50. Year old dictionary however.

That's a really good point, that the definition may actually be different in a 50 year old dictionary, and you're probably right, it is likely different! But the fact that it's changed in the dictionary over the course of 50 years helps demonstrate that gender is a social construct; it changed over time, as dictated by the demands of increasing social awareness and our ever-shifting/evolving culture :P

[jongeh]

That's a really good point, that the definition may actually be different in a 50 year old dictionary, and you're probably right, it is likely different! But the fact that it's changed in the dictionary over the course of 50 years helps demonstrate that gender is a social construct; it changed over time, as dictated by the demands of increasing social awareness and our ever-shifting/evolving culture :P

Yeah you're spot on. I totally support that different sexes can take on different roles than what they would have traditionally been, however what makes someone want to use a different toilet (for example) because of that is beyond me.

[paradox]

Way I see it is like this.

The last however many thousands of years, people have never tried to identify as "demiboy" or whatever.
It's been straight male and female gender.

The scientific advancement that discovered these new genders?
The internet.

These new "genders" didn't exist fifty years ago.
They barely existed ten years ago.

I'm all for calling yourself what you want, it doesn't phase me. But if you have a penis, you can use the mens restroom. If you have a vagina, you can use the female restroom.

99% of society shouldn't have to bend to what a group of people want because they said so.

Like everything else on the internet - Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean it's true.

Because this young generation gets bored with their lives on the Internet and regroup in the cesspool named Tumblr. They like to break social norms and think that's how life is meant to be. Hey, I'm all for imaginary worlds but when you try and convince people in the real world that you identify as a banana that is something that will get you in the loony bin faster than you can say "men in white coats".

I'd like to see them have a real relationship one day and start a family, have a stable job, etc...you know, things normal people do. Or maybe they'll mate with a plan...yeah I don't want to even think about it.