Esports

[Epic]

So, i read here recently that the U.S government is giving visas to league of legends players, which i think is pretty damn awesome. In sharing this with a friend who is a big sports fanatic exploded to a huge argument about league being a sport and comparing the LCS to the NBA and such. So what are your opinions ? Can esport players be considered athletes ? Can League and other games be considered sports ? Does the LCS and Other esport competitions such as the MLG deserve what the NBA and NFL get ?

[Raj]

In my opinion, e-sports are not sports. Sports require physical activity and all these online games require almost no physical activity. And I don't believe people will eat this up like they have with the NBA or NFL.

[Spurs]

I'd agree with Raj, I wouldn't consider online games players as athletes. Most athletes have spent their entire lives training and working hard to achieve their dreams, and they've been rewarded for their efforts. I just wouldn't put them in the same calibre.

[Kylae]

My roommate is the manager of the a soon to be LCS team when LCS rolls around again in December. As two of the teammates are Canadian, this is a pretty great thing.

[Epic]

In my opinion its hard to answer, because of the fact i think the word sport is like are, its really cannot be defined, it has no definite definition. I think a sport it where a team of people face another team, and try to complete a task or object before the other team to win.

So i think that yes, eSports can be considered a real sports. The people in the LCS train and study the sport religiously. They put in hard work, more than im sure we know, to get and stay where they are.

[Jin]

i don't see anything wrong with this tbh.
maybe i'm biased as someone that grew up around progaming and esports, as well as becoming part of it myself, but this is just my opinion i guess c:

a lot of the players grew up around video games. depending on which game they're playing professionally, they may even have played the game for a good portion of their life (like starcraft maybe? really young korean kids play that.. and some of them actually go pro at ages 13-15.

i can see where you're coming from though. league, having been released (kind of) recently in 2009, makes it almost impossible for players to have years and years of practice in the game. however, they may have played similar games (defense of the ancients, ~2005) in the past, giving them atleast experience with that kind of game.

larger tournaments like MLG are kind of like the Olympics of gaming.
different countries all over the world spend large amounts of money acquiring players for teams, just like any other sport.
they come together and battle it out.
seems fine to me. :P
this new thing (visas) help the teams get their players together to do things like practice and bond! ♥
for team games like league it's really important that players get along with their teammates. if there are conflicts within the team, they hold back their team's true potential.

a bit unlike real sports tho, it's not really gonna be something they do for the rest of their life. most progamers don't go past ~30+ish from what i see. a lot of them retire, pick new things to do, or become coaches for upcoming young talent. ^_^

[I_royalty_I]

Why not give it to them? Our immigration system is going to be a huge joke soon... might as well keep em coming with telling gamers they are "athletes" xD

I think that videos are just that, games. There is no athleticism required to play them, at all.
So you can move your fingers and stare at a screen, yay.... lol

I don't think we need to grant them visas by any stretch. I know I would never pay to see somebody play a video games, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

[Raj]

Why not give it to them? Our immigration system is going to be a huge joke soon... might as well keep em coming with telling gamers they are "athletes" xD

I think that videos are just that, games. There is no athleticism required to play them, at all.
So you can move your fingers and stare at a screen, yay.... lol

I don't think we need to grant them visas by any stretch. I know I would never pay to see somebody play a video games, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Unfortunately, it happens. Ever seen what some of those hardcore SSBB players do? Sure, they have tournaments and stuff which is fine cause they have a shot at cold hard cash, but the people that pay to watch them....no. Just no.

[Kylae]

The games are just as exciting as sports games. Someone gets tackled in football, someone kills another guy in the game, etc, it's all the same thing. The Buffalo Wild Wings here plays tournaments and sells as just as much as their sporting events. MLG (Major League Gaming) just had a huge esports convention here and the place was nuts. I hate sports, but I cheer the shit out of e-sports, it's something we gamers can get into.

[Raj]

Kylae I'm sure they're exciting and all if you enjoy that stuff but I don't think they can be considered a real sport. As Epic said, sports doesn't have a true definition so it's all opinion based on what you consider a sport is. To me, its something that requires physical activity. To you, it may include gaming. But I've never been into that stuff much so its a bit more challenging to see your point of view.

[I_royalty_I]

The games are just as exciting as sports games. Someone gets tackled in football, someone kills another guy in the game, etc, it's all the same thing. The Buffalo Wild Wings here plays tournaments and sells as just as much as their sporting events. MLG (Major League Gaming) just had a huge esports convention here and the place was nuts. I hate sports, but I cheer the shit out of e-sports, it's something we gamers can get into.

LOLOL WHATTTTTTT
Are you serious right now?!

I mean, I like to play video games, but I don't know if I can respect somebody that tells me they are a pro video game player. I don't know, that's just me. Granted, I think pro athletes are overpaid, but that's way more exciting. It's actual action, something you can get into and play yourself.

I would believe that a convention would be packed, but was it free? idgi.
I look at video games at something to do for fun, a hobby. I don't see them as a profession or anything like that. I definitely don't see it as something we should give visas for... but I'm not the least it surprised that the US would.

[Kylae]

No, it wasn't free, it was $30 or $50 to get in and people came from all over the world to go. Just because you're living in the olden days doesn't mean the rest of the world is. Stuff like Starcraft has been e-sporting for years, League is fairly recent in the time line but extremely vocal so it's getting a lot more show. I live in the hub of esports gaming, lol.

[grrrawr]

I mean, I like to play video games, but I don't know if I can respect somebody that tells me they are a pro video game player. I don't know, that's just me. Granted, I think pro athletes are overpaid, but that's way more exciting. It's actual action, something you can get into and play yourself.

Just because YOU don't think it's exciting, doesn't mean millions of other people don't. It works both ways.

[I_royalty_I]

Just because YOU don't think it's exciting, doesn't mean millions of other people don't. It works both ways.

That's why I said that's my opinion at least lol.
Yall are entitled to your own too :P

Feel free to disagree with me, I just can't see it selling out arenas and stuff!

[Magikarp]

What I hate about what people say about this is that "oh it's just games. Every one can do it"

BUT THATS NOT TRUE!

Yea if you play call of duty for a while, yea you can get 5-10 kills but you'll have like 10-20 deaths. Everyone can do that. Actual good people has the most kill in that match and the fewest/no death in the whole game. That takes skill and intelligence.

Even in league, yea you can run and kill people but your prolly gonna get killed instantly after that.

What makes you good is your level if intelligence. How well you can predict others movement the most efficiently while looking out for your other team members. It's not easy at all. But people who play in E-sports can pull it off. They have the mental ability to coordinate attacks and such. That's hat makes them athletes

[Raj]

kaikaikaisauce how do you define an athlete though? Being an athlete is both mental and physical. These guys, as you say, got the mental aspect of it down but there is absolutely no physicality in what they do. That's the barrier between sports and "e sports".

[Allegra]

You cannot compare the amount of dedication and mental/physical effort that athletes put into training and preparation, to someone who is obsessed with a video game. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[I_royalty_I]

You cannot compare the amount of dedication and mental/physical effort that athletes put into training and preparation, to someone who is obsessed with a video game. It's absolutely ridiculous.

That's true, that's another side of it that I didn't think of either. Not only the training, but the diet and workouts you have to put into the sport when you are an athlete.

Like, when I playing basketball, football, or whatever else, I come home tired from a hard workout/day. Then I'll go in the basement and play xbox to chill and relax. I guess I look at video games differently, I see them as something fun to do, not something super serious :O

[katix]

I think its awesome they are doing this. As a gamer all my life (Everquest 1&2, Starwars, Dota, League, WoW, Aion, GW2, etc, etc) I think they are finally catching up with the times. I am sorry but I've always found all sports the most boring thing ever. I hated my life and wanted to die every time I had to watch something like football. However, I enjoy watching pro-gamers. I love League tournaments. (Go TSM!) That being said I also agree its kinda shitty to mush physical sports with gaming sports but i would treat it just as equal as say the NFL and believe its pretty sweet they are giving visas and stuff. ^_^


Also video games can become extremely serious. In my old Guild in WoW , it started becoming a job to be in a hard core raid group. Gotta be strictly on time, few to no absences, etc, etc. Same with League if you want a 5v5 team . Still fun as hell and i love the thrill of being number 1 on dps charts and stuff. Anyway, can be just as serious as any other sport you put time in.

[Jay]

Sports = physical and mental prowress

I dont see why league can't be compared as a sport

[Allegra]

Sports = physical and mental prowress

I dont see why league can't be compared as a sport

Where is the physical prowess of a video game?
As for mental prowess, I think it's a completely different kind of mental game. I can respect those who say that skill at video games takes intelligence etc. because that may be true. But mental prowess in sport is different; you need intelligence, but you also need to train your mind to be 100% dedicated. Eating the right things, pushing your body to train every single day and telling yourself you have to do it, even though you might be exhausted. A different league, I'd say.

[Jay]

What sport uses both mental and physical aspects Peta?

[Allegra]

What sport uses both mental and physical aspects Peta?

Ummm....is that a serious question? Every professional sport available? o_0

[I_royalty_I]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Ummm....is that a serious question? Every professional sport available? o_0


She has got you there Jay.. fo realz bro.

Gotta know the plays, know how to be, where to be. Know when to turn around to make the grab, know just how fast to push off. On and on :O

[Jay]

Would you really consider that as an atheletes display of mental capacity? To me they just seem to acting off their own physical capabilities.

Just my opinion.

[Allegra]

Would you really consider that as an atheletes display of mental capacity? To me they just seem to acting off their own physical capabilities.

Just my opinion.


Absolutely. Every sport needs to be understood and every sport has strategy and detail. Not to mention the amount of mental strength it takes an athlete to train themselves up to a professional standard. You underestimate the role mental strength plays in dedication and persistence. It's not just about intelligence.

[Jay]

But why would you judge League of Legend's credibility as a sport? League (along with a bunch of other notable games) require a high amount of teamwork, Skill level, and intricate knowledge of the game's basic mechanics.
League players need to know how to turn a gank into a turn around, knowledge of the mechanics to escape a otherwise messy death and turn it into something beneficial for their team, how to communicate with their teammates, know the strength and weakness of every champion ect ect. I think you underestimate the amount of dedication and persistence people like this put into training for such high level tournaments or leagues. It's not just about strength.

[I_royalty_I]

But why would you judge League of Legend's credibility as a sport? League (along with a bunch of other notable games) require a high amount of teamwork, Skill level, and intricate knowledge of the game's basic mechanics.
League players need to know how to turn a gank into a turn around, knowledge of the mechanics to escape a otherwise messy death and turn it into something beneficial for their team, how to communicate with their teammates, know the strength and weakness of every champion ect ect. I think you underestimate the amount of dedication and persistence people like this put into training for such high level tournaments or leagues. It's not just about strength.

That's why I consider it just a game, not technically a sport.
It's like you have to know which monopoly pieces to buy and which to pass up. When to build houses, and when to trade.

But you don't do anything physical, so I don't think a gamer is an athlete, they are a player of the game.

[Jay]

That's why I consider it just a game, not technically a sport.
It's like you have to know which monopoly pieces to buy and which to pass up. When to build houses, and when to trade.

But you don't do anything physical, so I don't think a gamer is an athlete, they are a player of the game.

ALL ATHLETES ARE PLAYERS OF A GAME ANDREW!!!

also there is a reason monopoly doesn't have its own sport. I mean seriously.

It may be a game for some people but for others its what they dedicate their lives too.
It can be seen on both sides and is viewed the same way.

[I_royalty_I]

ALL ATHLETES ARE PLAYERS OF A GAME ANDREW!!!

also there is a reason monopoly doesn't have its own sport. I mean seriously.

It may be a game for some people but for others its what they dedicate their lives too.
It can be seen on both sides and is viewed the same way.

Yeah but gamers aren't athletes JAY!!!!!!

Gaming is in a category of it's own.

[Jay]

Ohkay you are right they aren't athletes.

but that doesnt mean League of Legends isnt a sport

Sport - "an activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc."

[Magikarp]

Some people arnt athletically talented. Like they could build their body, run laps, but they won't be able to shoot a 3 pointer. It's like language. I can speak Japanese and English but I know a lot of white people that have been living in Japan and their Japanese writing skills are good but they just can't speak. It's either you have the talent or not.

Of course gaming is that same. If you have the talent or not.

However before if you had not athletic talent you were nobody. But now if you have talent in gaming you can actually be recognized.

Well it sucks if you suck at both of them but more opportunity for people. What's wrong with that?

[I_royalty_I]

Some people arnt athletically talented. Like they could build their body, run laps, but they won't be able to shoot a 3 pointer. It's like language. I can speak Japanese and English but I know a lot of white people that have been living in Japan and their Japanese writing skills are good but they just can't speak. It's either you have the talent or not.

Of course gaming is that same. If you have the talent or not.

However before if you had not athletic talent you were nobody. But now if you have talent in gaming you can actually be recognized.

Well it sucks if you suck at both of them but more opportunity for people. What's wrong with that?

I'm not sure I followed you on that one :P
So you are saying different people are good at different things? I'd agree with that.

You can be recognized on the leaderboards if youre good, make videos and what not.
But I don't think "gaming" will ever become a big sport. Yeah people love to play video games, but there is no money in gaming... at least not MLG gaming, not like there are in sports like football, baseball, basketball.

The money in gaming is for the developers, not the players. The players provide the revenue. A professional gamer brings in next to nothing compared to other sports. So I don't see a point in having gaming be a sport, more of a hobby or past time that some people are better at than others. :P

[Allegra]

ALL ATHLETES ARE PLAYERS OF A GAME ANDREW!!!

also there is a reason monopoly doesn't have its own sport. I mean seriously.

It may be a game for some people but for others its what they dedicate their lives too.
It can be seen on both sides and is viewed the same way.

my definition of an athlete requires, as part, an intense physical ability. gaming requires intelligence, absolutely, but so do so many other things. For example, writing a novel. Writing takes dedication, persistence and skill to be successful but it's never been considered a sport nor is a writer considered an athlete.

[Epic]

Just because YOU don't think it's exciting, doesn't mean millions of other people don't. It works both ways.

A lot of people dont understand how deep the game goes and how much the people have to study the game.

And all this goes to show one cannot simply define "sport"

[Gray]

I'd rather watch intellectual warfare whether it be chess or another game where intelligent thinking, planning and strategy are the key factors.
Not the amount someone has spent groaning, sweating and muling around like animals in order to achieve the ability to preform athletically. (Admirably)

It's an amusing conversation/debate to watch considering it's going to be those athlete buffs who have never even been on the other side fighting another side, the e-sport side claiming how intellectually superior they are to make up for the "lack" of physical activity.

I've been on both sides of the fence, I've done sports and I've done esports.
The same mentality is on both sides usually within the right crowds. Both think they are superior due to their extreme and almost embarrassing bias.

Physical sports you're limited by your physical abilities.

Gaming, being an e-sport you're limited by your ability to out-think, react, plan and apply strategy more than you are any physical limitation.
Unless of course you have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, in that case good luck.

To disregard gaming or chess as not being a sport is as ignorant as saying what we deem as sports like baseball, basketball and hockey to be completely mindless and more reliant on the physical suitability.


my definition of an athlete requires, as part, an intense physical ability. gaming requires intelligence, absolutely, but so do so many other things. For example, writing a novel. Writing takes dedication, persistence and skill to be successful but it's never been considered a sport nor is a writer considered an athlete.

Gaming itself relies on your ability to do all those things, yes.
Without the ability to physically capitalize on those by movements of your fingers in the amount of time you need is a lot more "intense" than say an author writing a book.
Thinking itself has an effect on you physically as with gaming you're translating your thought into action through your hands, fingers and body at a faster rate in-order to outplay another individual or multiple. What good is a sharp reaction time without the ability to move your hands faster than your opponent. It carries extreme competition in doing so.

[Raj]

Physical sports you're limited by your physical abilities.

Not true at all. Athletes have to be intelligent about how they play the game. Basketball isn't just defense and shooting. Theres complex schemes of defense which the players must know or else their ass is cut. On offense, they must be in the right place at the right time. Its more than just physical ability. This applies to all sports, not just basketball :p

[Gray]

Not true at all. Athletes have to be intelligent about how they play the game. Basketball isn't just defense and shooting. Theres complex schemes of defense which the players must know or else their ass is cut. On offense, they must be in the right place at the right time. Its more than just physical ability. This applies to all sports, not just basketball :p

Very true, it doesn't matter how much intelligence you have in the game you're playing if you're physically incapable of preforming the action to do so.
You can know the proper mechanics of all actions, all plays and strategic positions. If you aren't physically inclined to out run someone, or run long enough that leaves you at a downfall.
Why? Because you aren't capable of preforming that physical action due to the limitations of your own physical self.

I'll put it as simply as this.

If we're running, I am a faster runner than you, I can run longer than you.
It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, or how you decide to mark your movements, your inability to run faster than me puts you at a disadvantage.

Why? Simply because your physical limitation.

[Raj]

Very true, it doesn't matter how much intelligence you have in the game you're playing if you're physically incapable of preforming the action to do so.
You can know the proper mechanics of all actions, all plays and strategic positions. If you aren't physically inclined to out run someone, or run long enough that leaves you at a downfall.
Why? Because you aren't capable of preforming that physical action due to the limitations of your own physical self.

I'll put it as simply as this.

If we're running, I am a faster runner than you, I can run longer than you.
It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, or how you decide to mark your movements, your inability to run faster than me puts you at a disadvantage.

Why? Simply because your physical limitation.

Ohh, this is what you meant. I misunderstood your statement then, and I agree. Disregard what I just said. :P

[Gray]

Ohh, this is what you meant. I misunderstood your statement then, and I agree. Disregard what I just said. :P

Which illustrates your point, the people who can't make the cut. Get cut.
The superior player is superior because of both his abilities to out preform physically, as well as outsmart the players intellectually.

[katix]

I'm not sure I followed you on that one :P
So you are saying different people are good at different things? I'd agree with that.

You can be recognized on the leaderboards if youre good, make videos and what not.
But I don't think "gaming" will ever become a big sport. Yeah people love to play video games, but there is no money in gaming... at least not MLG gaming, not like there are in sports like football, baseball, basketball.

The money in gaming is for the developers, not the players. The players provide the revenue. A professional gamer brings in next to nothing compared to other sports. So I don't see a point in having gaming be a sport, more of a hobby or past time that some people are better at than others. :P

This is not true. Many pro-gamers are sponsored and earn a ton of money. Yes right now it isn't as much as the NFL or anything but it is slowly getting there. Shoot League tournys are worth a lot of money.

[I_royalty_I]

This is not true. Many pro-gamers are sponsored and earn a ton of money. Yes right now it isn't as much as the NFL or anything but it is slowly getting there. Shoot League tournys are worth a lot of money.


I mean, I know people get sponsored, but I mean, what's the benefit of sponsoring somebody? Do the sponsors win something when the people they sponsor win tournaments and stuff? When you win championships in other sports, you win the recognition, which I guess you can win as a gamer? Kinda? But they also have all the promotions and merchandise, ticket sales, etc etc. idk about y'all, but I'm not rolling around town in an LoL shirt, or a shirt with a gaming team. And tickets are probably significantly cheaper, and fewer in quantity.
So the only people who it would make sense for to sponsor somebody would be the developers in order to promote their game. Ultimately, the goal being to sell more copies, or get more interest for their next game.

And out of curiosity, what is a ton of money when talking about "pro gamers"?

[bigblackqueh]

I guess sponsors also benefit from merchandise sales , especially companies like razer. Mm huge amount of money would be something like the first official opening game of dota2 which had a prize money of $1 million usd to the winning team :what:

[Jin]

league's s2 prizepool was 5mil usd, and s3 is going to be 8mil i believe, with 1mil going to the winning team.
the s1 prizepool was like $100,000.. the game's growing pretty fast ~ c:

[ewmeep]

A sport is something that requires skill for an advantage over others, no? Therefore, ESports == Sports

[Jauris]

The IOC recognizes both Chess and Bridge as sports. I don't see why people can't see a games like CounterStrike or Dota as sports.

[460097]

Well e-sports is still a growing thing so it has to be seen whether or not it could compete with sports.

In South Korea though, gaming is not just a recreational activity for many people; it's their livelihood and they make quite a lot of money out of it.

I think given the time to develop, e-sports could perhaps become like one of many sports people spectate and pay to watch.