Gun control in the U.S.

[drd]

I wanted to start a debate and this seems like a good topic. We'll see if it picks up...

Here are some questions to help get this started:

What do you think of the all the talk of further gun control following the recent shootings in Colorado and Connecticut?

Do you think if we had increased gun control like the banning of certain types of firearms, ect. that these incidents could have been avoided?

Any other comments or questions of your own are welcome, of course.

For those of you who aren't totally aware of the situation here is a small outline of Obama's recent proposals on gun control:

The following was copied directly from this Wikipedia page ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Specific sources can be found there.

On January 16, 2013, in response to the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and other national tragedies, President Obama announced a plan for improving the control of firearms in the United States, and providing greater access to mental health services. The plan included proposals for new laws to be passed by Congress, as well as a series of executive actions not requiring Congressional approval.

The proposed congressional actions included:

Require background checks for all gun sales, including those by private individuals
Pass a new, stronger ban on "assault weapons"
Limit magazines to 10 rounds
Ban the possession of armor-piercing bullets
Provide financing for improved mental health coverage, particularly for young people
Provide funding for schools to develop emergency response plans
The executive actions included:
Improve the data used for the background check system for gun sales
Direct the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to research gun violence
Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers
Give law enforcement additional tools to prevent and prosecute gun crime
On January 31, 2013, the Newtown school board voted unanimously to ask for police officer presence in all of its elementary schools; previously other schools in the district had such protection, but Sandy Hook had not been one of those.

[Mod]

Debate topic already made:

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[Jolz]

Coming from a country that has very little firearm related deaths, I don't see a problem. You can't just buy a gun here but I don't know what it is like in America.

[Duck4Cover]

Coming from a country that has very little firearm related deaths, I don't see a problem. You can't just buy a gun here but I don't know what it is like in America.

It's a little difficult, but not overly so.
You just have to get like a background check thing, wait like 10 days and if its all clear you can come pick it up.
There's more to it but that's the jist of it.
Its so easy to get around though, perfect example is me, I'n not supposed to own or possess firearms, so I just had my sister go out and buy/register it for me.
Mine is only used for all the critters where I live though, feral hogs are outrageous lol.
Its more for just scaring them too, I don't think I'd have the heart to shoot one xD

But honestly I don't think banning certain types of guns would have prevented anything, all it would mean is they need to reload more tbh.
Not trying to be funny at all here, just the truth x_x

[|2eap]

They CAN NOT take my guns!
'Murricaaa

[drd]

It's a little difficult, but not overly so.
You just have to get like a background check thing, wait like 10 days and if its all clear you can come pick it up.
There's more to it but that's the jist of it.


It varies from state to state. Texas, for instance, requires no registration of guns or licences for gun owners. Due to the recent shootings, though, the government is trying to trying to restrict it more on a federal level, and there seems to be a lot of people behind it.




But honestly I don't think banning certain types of guns would have prevented anything, all it would mean is they need to reload more tbh.
Not trying to be funny at all here, just the truth x_x


I totally agree. The recent events and ones from the past were tragic, of course... but to me all federal regulation is going to do is make it so that the only ones who have these powerful weapons are these maniacs and our military and government. To me that is a worse fate than anything else. I realize that a few of them obtained the weapons legally, but if they were willing to calculate these maniacal schemes I severally doubt gun laws are going to stop them. After the patriot act the last thing we need to be doing is taking away more rights. Our government has managed to put this country in a stronghold and I think it's time people realized that and just said no! I think it should remain as is.. leaving most of it up to the states

[Hinth]

To be honest I'm skeptical of further limitations (other than the ban of heavy arms of course).

If a would-be murderer wants to acquire guns badly, there will still be avenues open to him, regardless of new laws and whatnot.

[Duck4Cover]

Another thing that comes to mind for me is "When they outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns."
I don't think that's exact but its along those lines.

[drd]

Another thing that comes to mind for me is "When they outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns."
I don't think that's exact but its along those lines.

And of course, like I said, government agencies and the military will have full right to use what they please. Scary thought... It may not seem like it but when you think about it, the less rights we have, the more rights our government has. If we allow them to take more and more away before you know it we will be looking at an Orwellian future in the U.S..

[Whispers]

I know one of the main arguments against gun control is: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".
And to some extent that makes sense, I mean of course a gun by itself can't kill people and it's people who use guns to kill other people, HOWEVER coming from Europe, I can say that this argument doesn't hold water!

I come from a country in Europe, where it's almost impossible for civilians to get a gun permit (as it also is most other places in Europe). This shows on the percentage of lethal crimes committed in my country and on the percentage of gun related deaths and accidents, it's almost non existent! The reason I keep saying percentage is, that when one of those incidents does happen, it's usually ALL over the media, so from just looking at the media, you might think it happens more often than it really does, but it certainly doesn't!

In my country we have only had 2 serial killers in modern times, whereas in America there are have been to our knowledge around 200 convicted serial killers in modern times, 25 in/famous serial killers that haven't been caught (those aren't suspected to be active though) and last but certainly not least: "A very conservative estimate is that there are between 35 and 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given time." These are only Serial Killers, not Mass Murderers, Spree Killers or Murderers.

Now I do understand that America is very large compared to my country and I also know that serial killers don't all use guns, however this is more to show how extreme the differences really are. I think it is very apparent when you look at the percentages of gun related deaths and accidents in the US and compare it to most other countries in Europe, that guns really do kill, more than people do!

Now I completely understand the argument that drd mentioned: "Scary thought... It may not seem like it but when you think about it, the less rights we have, the more rights our government has. If we allow them to take more and more away before you know it we will be looking at an Orwellian future in the U.S.. "
With a government like the one that's in place in the US, it certainly is scary and it's certainly something that should have it's own thread even, however I really do believe that there would be much less gun related crimes happening, if guns were almost impossible to get.

The one thing that I am against, when it comes to "Gun Control in the US", is that the proposals are still tame and it would still be very much possible to get guns, if the US really wanted to create a Gun Control, they should use some of the models already in place, in many places in Europe. Because it certainly wont help to just make it a bit harder, it would have to be almost impossible. And I do realize that as Duck4Cover mentioned: "When they outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns." but I would still say that, that's true even in Europe, however again, the percentages of gun related crimes and accidents are still very, very small.

Seriously, I am sorry, but a lot of things in life comes down to math and if you look at the numbers, well you'll realize that this method is better (by this I am in no way saying that, anyone's life is worth more or less, but I am just saying that, it's better to not have more innocent people die. I do realize that there would still be people dying and that's certainly sad, but isn't it better to have less than more, innocent lives taken away?).

[IndigoSunset]

And of course, like I said, government agencies and the military will have full right to use what they please. Scary thought... It may not seem like it but when you think about it, the less rights we have, the more rights our government has. If we allow them to take more and more away before you know it we will be looking at an Orwellian future in the U.S..
Given that the US military spending in 2011 was about $680 billion, what difference are a few assault rifles really going to make? The simple truth is your Government already has more than enough weapons to destroy/terrorise you if they really wanted, getting rid of rifles wouldn't affect that in any meaningful way. Therefore, if gun regulation could be shown to reduce citizen vs citizen/authority shootings then that shouldn't be a factor.


But honestly I don't think banning certain types of guns would have prevented anything, all it would mean is they need to reload more tbh.
Not trying to be funny at all here, just the truth x_x
If nothing else, forcing someone to reload more would give people longer to get away and more chance of surviving. Sounds like a good idea to me.


I totally agree. The recent events and ones from the past were tragic, of course... but to me all federal regulation is going to do is make it so that the only ones who have these powerful weapons are these maniacs and our military and government. To me that is a worse fate than anything else. I realize that a few of them obtained the weapons legally, but if they were willing to calculate these maniacal schemes I severally doubt gun laws are going to stop them. After the patriot act the last thing we need to be doing is taking away more rights. Our government has managed to put this country in a stronghold and I think it's time people realized that and just said no! I think it should remain as is.. leaving most of it up to the states
Of course you'll never be able to prevent absolutely every single gun-related crime by restricting access to weaponry. But given how effective it can be in dramatically reducing gun deaths, surely that is something that should be implemented? We shouldn't let the best be the enemy of the good. The declaration of independence called for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness and we accept all sorts of limitations on the latter two for the protection of the first, why would banning assault weapons be such a big deal? That's what I can't get my head around in this debate.

[drd]

Whispers
I've been sitting here doing research and there's nothing I can really dispute about it xD
But I can say this: most of the countries around Europe with these laws in place have been that way for a very long time, same as the U.S. with it's lenient gun laws. As I've said, there are states where you don't even have to have any kind of permit, ect. therefore if our government just up and decided to take the guns there would be millions left in circulation and would create an enormous black market for them.

Anyway like I said, I can't really dispute what you have to say... but I'm convinced the proposed gun laws have nothing to do with protecting people, but a ploy for our government to gain more rights. Same as the patriot act, they actually managed to convince the people to vote and pass this thing, which makes it so that government agency's can put surveillance on any citizen (without any type of probably cause needed), and even worse can detain you without any given reason, and absolve you of your right to any sort of trial. That's just a few things that it does. Though that's another subject all together...

I think people need to realize the the government we have in place in this country (at least on the federal level) are only looking after their own interests, not the rights of the people. I'm not trying to devalue human life here, but that's a future I'm not willing to accept, no matter what that means.



Given that the US military spending in 2011 was about $680 billion, what difference are a few assault rifles really going to make? The simple truth is your Government already has more than enough weapons to destroy/terrorise you if they really wanted, getting rid of rifles wouldn't affect that in any meaningful way. Therefore, if gun regulation could be shown to reduce citizen vs citizen/authority shootings then that shouldn't be a factor.


Well yea but again that's based under the assumption the laws are actually proposed to protect people, but I believe it is evident that it is just the first step towards taking them all. Now it's just a few assault rifles, convince people of that and what's it going to be next year? And I realize the government already has more than enough, but letting them take these away from us now is just lying down and accepting defeat. "Well you have more than us, so let's just give up while were ahead."

[Whispers]

drd I have to first say that, I love that you actually took the time to research this :) Not many people do that, which is very unfortunate, I always take the time to research the topic I am debating, otherwise there wont be much substance in what you're writing.


Whispers
I've been sitting here doing research and there's nothing I can really dispute about it xD
But I can say this: most of the countries around Europe with these laws in place have been that way for a very long time, same as the U.S. with it's lenient gun laws. As I've said, there are states where you don't even have to have any kind of permit, ect. therefore if our government just up and decided to take the guns there would be millions left in circulation and would create an enormous black market for them.

I would definitely agree with what you said; if the American government were to just ban all guns right away, then the black market for them would be enormous!
I would propose that, they phase it out, otherwise it won't end with the result that we're all hoping for. If they start by banning certain guns and making it harder (like the proposal, they already have), then it would be much easier to make a complete ban in the longer run. They just have to make sure that the end goal is, to make it almost impossible for civilians to get guns, which isn't the case now. If that isn't the end goal, then what they're doing isn't worth much.



Anyway like I said, I can't really dispute what you have to say... but I'm convinced the proposed gun laws have nothing to do with protecting people, but a ploy for our government to gain more rights. Same as the patriot act, they actually managed to convince the people to vote and pass this thing, which makes it so that government agency's can put surveillance on any citizen (without any type of probably cause needed), and even worse can detain you without any given reason, and absolve you of your right to any sort of trial. That's just a few things that it does. Though that's another subject all together...

I think people need to realize the the government we have in place in this country (at least on the federal level) are only looking after their own interests, not the rights of the people. I'm not trying to devalue human life here, but that's a future I'm not willing to accept, no matter what that means.

Don't get me going about the Patriot Act, the Ricco Act and the American Government! (Seriously don't get me started, because I could literally go on for hours, days or maybe even years! Haha :D) What I will say in short is that, these acts are absolutely the most despicable thing I've ever seen! These laws should be removed, effective immediately and anyone who were to even as much as suggest them, should be thrown in prison!

Here's the thing though, I am in NO WAY suggesting that, the US Government doesn't have a manipulative reasoning behind supporting/pushing this law, HOWEVER, I will say that the result wont be a diminished freedom, we've already proven that in Europe!

Europe actually has much more freedom than "The Land of The Free", it's quite sad to think about what has happened to America! :(
America was built with the best intentions; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." that's why it became a beacon of hope to the rest of the world.
Nowadays though, America is ridiculed and it's government has become corrupt; the government is now a capitalistic power hungry government, who doesn't care the least about it's own people and they've forgotten/abandoned the American ideals! Freedom of Speech? It's more like Freedom of Censorship! You can be thrown in prison for cussing in public or making a scene in many states according to the three strike rule. I won't even get into the military. Seriously I think I'll just stop here, with this thought: If Americans don't start standing up to the government, communist Russia or China won't be anything compared to what will happen in America!



Well yea but again that's based under the assumption the laws are actually proposed to protect people, but I believe it is evident that it is just the first step towards taking them all. Now it's just a few assault rifles, convince people of that and what's it going to be next year? And I realize the government already has more than enough, but letting them take these away from us now is just lying down and accepting defeat. "Well you have more than us, so let's just give up while were ahead."

Again, I understand where you're coming from, but we've already proven in Europe that Gun Control/Banning won't take away any real freedom! :)

[IndigoSunset]

drd
Grr, accidentally lost my post so apologies if this is briefer than initially intended haha.

Your reply to me could essentially be a reply to your own response to Whispers: "There are more guns in circulation than we can regulate so we should just lie down and accept defeat". Like I said, we shouldn't make the best the enemy of the good. With relatively easy efforts we could regulate a large proportion of them which would save lives, what is so objectionable about that?

I don't think the Patriot Act is strictly relevant here. That act stripped away principles which are fundamental in pretty much every legal system in the world. This is about stopping people from being able to shoot people. There is surely a massive difference between those two things.

And yes, every government is self-serving, just like everybody. But a government looking out for its own interests has to maintain enough popular support to sustain its power. Its not the interests of government to screw the majority (that's why minorities are so often oppressed and why it's so important they are supported). The first role of government is to protect its people and if it doesn't do that then it won't be the government for much longer.

[drd]

IndigoSunset


Grr, accidentally lost my post so apologies if this is briefer than initially intended haha.


Awww :P



Your reply to me could essentially be a reply to your own response to Whispers: "There are more guns in circulation than we can regulate so we should just lie down and accept defeat". Like I said, we shouldn't make the best the enemy of the good. With relatively easy efforts we could regulate a large proportion of them which would save lives, what is so objectionable about that?


I said in two separate reply's. What I said to whispers was
"therefore if our government just up and decided to take the guns there would be millions left in circulation and would create an enormous black market for them"
meaning that once they become illegal most of the people who will have access to this arsenal are the true criminals using them with bad intent.
and what I was saying to you (in reply to "what difference are a few assault rifles really going to make?") was that looking at it that way seems to be accepting defeat.
I feel like you just mashed those 2 ideas together, that or I just don't know what you mean xD



I don't think the Patriot Act is strictly relevant here. That act stripped away principles which are fundamental in pretty much every legal system in the world. This is about stopping people from being able to shoot people. There is surely a massive difference between those two things.


It's not exactly. I was just using it as an example of how our government seems to be systemically trying to invalidate our constitution, but again that's another topic in itself.



And yes, every government is self-serving, just like everybody. But a government looking out for its own interests has to maintain enough popular support to sustain its power. Its not the interests of government to screw the majority (that's why minorities are so often oppressed and why it's so important they are supported). The first role of government is to protect its people and if it doesn't do that then it won't be the government for much longer.

And that's exactly what their trying to do: keep public support while serving their own interests. I feel that once they gain enough power it will no longer matter.

Whispers


I have to first say that, I love that you actually took the time to research this :) Not many people do that, which is very unfortunate, I always take the time to research the topic I am debating, otherwise there wont be much substance in what you're writing.


Yea, I think that's a big problem with a lot of people. They are so stuck in their own views that there not even willing to look in to what other people have to say and therefore end up blinded. Though, I'm not saying I can't be just as stubborn sometimes...I'm only human.




I would definitely agree with what you said; if the American government were to just ban all guns right away, then the black market for them would be enormous!
I would propose that, they phase it out, otherwise it won't end with the result that we're all hoping for. If they start by banning certain guns and making it harder (like the proposal, they already have), then it would be much easier to make a complete ban in the longer run. They just have to make sure that the end goal is, to make it almost impossible for civilians to get guns, which isn't the case now. If that isn't the end goal, then what they're doing isn't worth much.


I hate to reiterate the same stuff here xD, but I'm just not so sure their end goal is to actually protect anybody; but to make sure we can't protect ourselves against them when it all comes down to it. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but that's just how I see it xD



Don't get me going about the Patriot Act, the Ricco Act and the American Government! (Seriously don't get me started, because I could literally go on for hours, days or maybe even years! Haha :D) What I will say in short is that, these acts are absolutely the most despicable thing I've ever seen! These laws should be removed, effective immediately and anyone who were to even as much as suggest them, should be thrown in prison!


Right? :P


Here's the thing though, I am in NO WAY suggesting that, the US Government doesn't have a manipulative reasoning behind supporting/pushing this law, HOWEVER, I will say that the result wont be a diminished freedom, we've already proven that in Europe!


I truly hope your right and I'm just being paranoid because of all the other things they are trying to do...



Europe actually has much more freedom than "The Land of The Free", it's quite sad to think about what has happened to America! :(
America was built with the best intentions; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." that's why it became a beacon of hope to the rest of the world.
Nowadays though, America is ridiculed and it's government has become corrupt; the government is now a capitalistic power hungry government, who doesn't care the least about it's own people and they've forgotten/abandoned the American ideals! Freedom of Speech? It's more like Freedom of Censorship! You can be thrown in prison for cussing in public or making a scene in many states according to the three strike rule. I won't even get into the military. Seriously I think I'll just stop here, with this thought: If Americans don't start standing up to the government, communist Russia or China won't be anything compared to what will happen in America!


This is, in a nutshell, why I feel the way I do... Like I said, it may just be paranoia, but I really think that this is the intent behind it, and that's what worries me the most.

Any, just wanted to say thanks to both of you for a good, thought-provoking debate. It's not all that easy of a thing to find.

[Whispers]

Any, just wanted to say thanks to both of you for a good, thought-provoking debate. It's not all that easy of a thing to find.

I agree, the one thing I love the most about this forum is that, there are actual intelligent people here, whom are able to have civilized, intelligent, though-provoking and wonderful debates! :love_heart: I have always said, that even if I don't agree with someone's views, I applaud them for having their own views and expressing them in a intelligent and civilized fashion!

And I will end this by quoting Evelyn Beatrice Hall (whom so many confuse with Voltaire), this debate just calls for it:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall