Obama shouldn't be reelected.

[Ronith]

Yup. He barely did anything for the first 90 days of presidency, which has been traditional the most important days of a presidential candidacy. He caused the country to go into greater debt, and lowered the rating from AAA to AA. Good Job.

And the worse part of all, Obama essentially fucked up the car industry and targeted GOP donors.

Now prove me wrong.

[Becka]

I guess you're right, I'm in Australia and I know that almost all politics these days are fucked up. Including Obama. He did get soldiers to kill the world's most wanted man though I guess. But still, you guys need someone that will improve your economy. I heard petrol costs HEAPS there and everything else. >_>

[Ronith]

I guess you're right, I'm in Australia and I know that almost all politics these days are fucked up. Including Obama. He did get soldiers to kill the world's most wanted man though I guess. But still, you guys need someone that will improve your economy. I heard petrol costs HEAPS there and everything else. >_>
There is a reason why gas costs more, read the below article.


Originally Posted by Indy GT
Another great post Chip. And long overdue as our Forum membership has many new faces I am sure.

For those new to our Forum and wish to read another of Chip's literary treatises, I suggest you search out his comments on gasoline. Another of his favorite topics and one which he also has depth of experience.

Bill,

I had almost forgot about that post. Here is a little history about that write up. I have a severe dystonia in my right hand that makes it difficult for me to type, so I bought some voice recognition software called "Dragon Naturally Speaking" and wrote that treatise on gasoline prices while learning to use it. I put it up on the Ford GT Forum and it caused a stir, getting cut and pasted on hundreds of web sites as it spread all over the country. A copy of it found it's way to Chevron Oil Companies top management and they distributed copies of it to their management employees nation wide. Many radio talk show hosts quoted parts of it including Rush Limbaugh who recited a section of it almost word for word on his show (he did not credit me). In any event, I studied Managerial Economics in graduate school and love the subject. My entire life has been spent in the automobile, aviation, and gasoline businesses. For those who have not read it, I've copied it below.

Chip
__________________________________________________ _______________________


“The real reasons for higher than necessary gasoline prices and regional shortages.”

By Chip Beck

This article is long, but if you take the time to read it, perhaps a few things will come to light.

I have read and I have on good authority that one out of four Americans today is functionally illiterate, this means that they cannot read and comprehend a daily newspaper. Worse than that, approximately 50% of all adult Americans are numerically illiterate, meaning they cannot add, subtract, multiply, and divide three digit numbers using a sheet of paper and a pencil. It has also become abundantly clear that at least 95% of adult Americans are economically illiterate. The current national furor over high gasoline prices, with accusations by politicians and citizens alike of conspiracies and gouging by oil companies in collusion with one another are evidence of this. As I have on this forum in the past, I feel compelled here to point out a few basic economic principles, along with a few facts for you to ponder. Fact number one, current oil company profits on a gallon of gas at three dollars per gallon are currently 9% or about $.27 per gallon. Of that $.27, approximately 40% is taken by the government in taxes before the remaining 60% is distributed to shareholders. Thus the after-tax profit distributed to the tens of millions of Americans who own oil company stocks is about $.16 per gallon. There are no greedy oil company owners colluding with one another to gouge American citizens, only shareholders like you and me, our pension funds, our IRAs, and our investment portfolios. The largest American oil company is Exxon Mobil; they are the fifth largest oil company in the world and control less than 5% of the world oil market. The top three US oil companies combined control less than 10% of the world oil market. This is hardly a market dominating monopoly.

Large markets are more efficient than small markets. Any governmental regulation that inhibits the free flow of products or its production will result in either higher prices, product shortages, or both. Essential products like gasoline without readily available substitutes are by definition, inelastic, meaning that large increases in price will have only a small effect upon consumption. Nonessential products with readily available substitutes like apple juice are by definition, elastic, meaning that even small increases in price will have a large effect upon consumption.

Most products including automobiles and gasoline are assembled from multiple components as well as requiring numerous processes to produce the finished product. Any shortage of an essential component or any bottleneck in the manufacturing process will limit total production to the number that may be produced by what ever item is in shortest supply. It matters not a whit how abundant the other components or manufacturing processes are, nor does it matter what the bottleneck is. All that matters is that a bottleneck exists. The six speed transmission in the 2007 Ford Shelby GT500 Mustang is an example of such a bottleneck. Despite enormous demand for the Shelby version, Mustang sales were down 19% that year, the cars were available in large numbers, and Ford Motor Co. would obviously have liked to sell them. But because only 10,000 of the six speed transmissions necessary to build a Shelby GT500 were available to Ford that year, total production (and Shelby sales) were limited to 10,000.

I have not seen in any publication, nor have I heard on any newscasts the actual reason for today's high gasoline prices. There is a reason why gasoline is about $.50 to $.75 per gallon more expensive today than it should be given today's price of oil. And though the reason is not obvious or even readily apparent to those outside the gas & oil business, neither is it particularly difficult to explain or to understand. So here you go.

Up until the 1970s in the United States gasoline was essentially a commodity. Produced in over 150 refineries nationwide gasoline was piped or trucked wherever it was needed. A production disruption or breakdown in any one refinery affected less than 1% of the national supply. The vacuum created by one plant's production stoppage was immediately filled by product flowing in from other areas drawn to the affected region by temporarily higher prices. Much like the scooping of a bucket of water out of the surface of a lake is immediately filled by water rushing in from the rest of the lake, the force of Adam Smith's "invisible hand" sent gasoline quickly and efficiently where ever it was needed. Prices were essentially equal, coast to coast. But in the late 1970s, government and its well meaning yet isolated and economically ignorant bureaucrats got involved. First was the State of California deciding that it needed its own special blend of gasoline. Next high altitude areas decided a special blend would be better for them too. State after state and county after county decided to dictate special fuel blends for their communities as well. Four years ago the number of refineries in the United States had shrunk to about 100 due to environmental regulations and government mandates. At the same time, the total number of regular unleaded gasoline blends had reached the absurd number of 165.

My home here in Scottsdale, Arizona is in the middle of Maricopa County. The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors in their infinite wisdom dictated a blend of regular unleaded gasoline that was not sold or used any other place in the world. This, despite the fact that the entire state of Arizona does not contain a single refinery. Therefore our own little special blend needed to be piped in from Texas or California where it was produced in a total of three refineries. No other blend of unleaded gasoline could legally be sold in Maricopa County. The results of this folly to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of economics were predictably disastrous. A production disruption at any one of the three refineries producing our boutique blend immediately cut off one third of Maricopa County’s fuel supply. This was brought into sharp focus by the bursting of the Kinder-Morgan pipeline from Texas into Maricopa County two years ago bringing the Valley of the Sun to it's knees for two weeks. While I sat in my Chevron station out of fuel and out of business for four straight days, gasoline was plentiful just 25 miles away and in every other county of Arizona. But I was not allowed to pick up the phone and have a tanker deliver it to me as selling a non-Maricopa County blend fuel would result in fines exceeding $100,000, and most likely jail time as well. Our fuel supply is no longer a lake with Adam Smith's invisible hand sending gasoline quickly and efficiently where it is needed. Blend requirements have turned it into an ice cube tray with solid walls blocking the flow of fuel from the rest of the full tray into the cube that is presently dry. Our Democrat Governor Janet Napolitano, a hard-core liberal and an economic idiot, could have solved this problem with the stroke of a pen, exercising an executive order temporarily eliminating Maricopa Counties fuel blend requirement. Instead of taking this simple step to help all Arizonans, she dithered and did what all good liberals would do, she used this shortage and the hardship created by it to demonize gas station operators like me, my suppliers including Chevron, and to score political points for herself by taking cheap shots at the entire gas and oil industry.

The United States of America has taken a huge step backwards in both the production and distribution of gasoline because of these blend requirements. And it gets even worse as twice a year most municipalities switch from a summer blend to a winter blend and then back to their summer blend. As government regulatory agencies insist on testing these blends in the field at tank farms, each blend changeover results in a draw down of existing fuel stocks to critical levels. That done, it takes a while before the new blend can be shipped or piped in sufficient quantities to restock tank farms all across the country. Instead of just producing fuel 24 hours a day seven days a week, refineries must now constantly gauge individual markets and do their best to estimate how much fuel will be needed, and therefore produced for each little cube in the tray. A miscalculation by refiners or a change in demand of any market results in either a glut or shortage that cannot be shipped to or from another market because fuel produced for one market cannot legally be sold in another market. Instead of the lake we used to have with 150 streams of product flowing into it immediately assessable nationwide we now have this ice cube tray of small individual cubicles, each filled by just a couple refineries. Where a production disruption at an individual refinery used to be invisible to the American public because of its small effect on the total supply, now a production disruption at an individual refinery creates a crisis, eliminating 30% and sometimes as much as 50% of the fuel available for sale in that market. This has led to huge differences in the cost of gasoline from one market to another. And when a production difficulty arises such as a refinery fire is not uncommon for the price of gas in that affected market to spike up more than a dollar a gallon.

Let me add that every single time a refinery needs to change from one blend to another, that refinery needs to be shut down in order for the change to take effect. These constant shutdowns and start ups are eliminating as much as 20% of the capacity of each refinery and adding enormously to the cost of operating that facility. These blend requirements are adding $.50 to $.75 to the cost of each gallon of gasoline that we purchase. In addition to this, taxes at both the federal, state, and local levels totaled nearly $.60 per gallon. After-tax profits to shareholders of oil companies on the sale of a $3 gallon of gasoline will total about $.16. Even if oil companies eliminated 100% of their before tax profit that would only amount to $.27 per gallon. Oh, let me mention that the oil companies have to do 100% of the work to find, transport, refine, and deliver our fuel supply. Our government on the other hand, does none of the work, yet gouges American citizens to the tune of approximately $.60 cents per gallon in direct taxes, plus income tax of approximately $.11 per gallon on distributed oil company profits, plus between $.50 and $.75 per gallon in mandated regulatory costs. Clearly there is some gouging going on by local and state governments that rip our heads off to the tune of over one dollar per gallon! These same economic nitwits tell us that the .16 cent after-tax profit on the Exxon Mobil stock in your IRA is unconscionable!! All of this is possible of course because we run our public school system not for the benefit of our children, but instead for the benefit of the NEA teachers union and their cash campaign contributions to the Democratic Party. The laws of economics are as certain as the law of gravity. Yet economics is not being taught in public schools today. This economic illiteracy combined with the misinformation spewed at us daily by our left wing agenda driven mainstream press has public anger directed at the wrong culprit.

We have taken the world's largest and most efficient market for gasoline and turned it into over 100 little tiny inefficient markets. We have taken the world's best gasoline distribution system and made it irrelevant by making it illegal to ship fuel from its intended market into another market where it is needed. And worst of all, we have not built a new fuel refinery in the United States in over 30 years. Many oil companies have tried yet it is virtually impossible to obtain all of the permits necessary to build one as environmental groups sue time and time again to stop construction and left wing Liberal Democrat appointed judges grant these environmental wackos endless impact studies that stop construction. We have permanently closed down about one third of the refineries that existed 30 years ago however because governmental regulatory requirements have made it impossible to keep them operating profitably. Our current refineries are operating at very close to their maximum capacity. But this is not sufficient as we now need to import 14% of our refined gasoline. The United States of America, the greatest economic power on earth, is incapable of refining its own gasoline supply because we have willingly crippled ourselves with suicidal environmental restrictions. Shipping crude oil is relatively safe as it is fairly inert and not very combustible. Shipping refined gasoline is tricky and dangerous as it gives off explosive fumes and is extremely flammable. We are playing national Russian roulette with our own energy security. We have very little room for error and with our expanding population and economy we are nearing a crisis point. As 20% of our refining capacity has been eliminated through shutdowns and start ups required by continual blend changes, refinery capacity is the bottleneck. Until the United States deals with this issue, and it is not going to deal with it, our gasoline supply will remain restricted and prices will remain high regardless of the price of oil.

These are the real reasons for our fuel prices being higher today than they should be given the price of oil. What baffles me is that President Bush was willing to take the political hit for those high fuel prices yet did not even make an attempt to explain it to the American people. I know President Bush understood that problem because after hurricane Katrina he immediately issued an executive order suspending all fuel blend requirements nationwide. He knew that without taking this decisive action there is no way that America's remaining undamaged fuel refineries could keep up with demand.

Ahhh, I'm sure there's a big environmental payoff for all of the economic pain that these blend requirements have imposed upon us right?? The air is certainly much cleaner than it would be if we all used the same blend, right?? We now have the answer to that question. For about two months after Katrina all gasoline sold in the United States was essentially the same blend. There was no detectable difference in air quality during this time. No detectable benefit for the incredible expense incurred in brewing up 165 different blends of gasoline!!! Yet as soon as refineries came back online these ridiculous blend requirements were put back in place.

And that is where we stand today. This post has been quite lengthy, both for you to read and for me to write. I hope the payoff for those of you patient enough to slog your way through it has been a better understanding of the economics involved, fuel production and its current price, and the real problem and its solution. Cheers.

Chip Beck

----
Source: Why are dealers such a rip off ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Possible]

Fuck obama

[I_royalty_I]

He did get soldiers to kill the world's most wanted man though I guess.

That's not true!
All he did was approve it.
The real people that did that work were the people at the NSA, CIA, etc.
The people who spend the day to day trying to get tips and leads and bring these people down.
Do you know how they eventually found Osama? Chance.
There was an interesting show I saw a few months ago that went over things, definitely a good watch. :)

[Possible]

Obama hasnt done shit for the US except give N*gs more welfare money so they dont have to go out and get a job. I'm not racist but he made black people more lazy.

[Ronith]

Obama hasnt done shit for the US except give N*gs more welfare money so they dont have to go out and get a job. I'm not racist but he made black people more lazy.
I wouldn't say that. There is plenty of white trash who do the same (;

[Possible]

True true, but far more blacks(once again not racist)

[I_royalty_I]

I wouldn't say that. There is plenty of white trash who do the same (;

Very true.
In fact, apparently the majority of people that are on welfare are middle aged white people.

But it is true that there are now more welfare programs than there should be... so many in fact that the number of people on welfare is almost larger than the people who are not. A delicate balance, that when tipped... will put us even further in debt.

I've already accepted the fact that when I grow up the government isn't gonna be there for me with any of these programs. I think that we should just eliminate income tax all together. It would save hard working people money, and stop the government from overspending on stupid shit.
They should let us have more of a say.
Government should be scared of the people, not the other way around. ;)

[Possible]

And majority of the US see's obama as a better president than bush, no saying bush was much better. But obama make our deficit much larger than it should be. And the CIA were the ones that said they were WOMD's in Iraq, not Bush

[I_royalty_I]

I just don't like Obama as a person.
He is just a two faced politician.
He got his chance, I don't think he really did much with it.
The only thing I hear about him is how many vacations he takes, his golf games..
I feel like he just treats the presidency as a game, as his own personal chill time.
I don't feel like he is really doing anything in the countrys best interests, just his own private agendas.

[Possible]

And his wife uses Air Force 1's backup plane as her own personal jet

[bambi]

I think its better to not do anything than to do something that fucks up this country like war

[Possible]

As stated before, that wasn't Bush's fault, that was the CIA.

*waits for dumbass democrats to defend Osama Obama*

[Lilac Tentacles]

I think its better to not do anything than to do something that fucks up this country like war


Totally disagree. I love war. More money for meeeeeeeeeeee! And it's all tax free. Plus i get pretty new ribbons for being shot at. War is my livelihood and i'll have you know i've been trying to get deployed for 4 years and all the dumb anti-war hippies are ruining that for me! Shut up and let it happen.

I'm not allowed to speak ill of my boss, so i won't, but i have nothing nice to say. I'll leave it at that.

[I_royalty_I]

I think its better to not do anything than to do something that fucks up this country like war

Well when your job is essentially TO DO something... not doing anything just isn't a possibility.

[bambi]

Well when your job is essentially TO DO something... not doing anything just isn't a possibility.

But almost every other president didnt do anything either just war

[Lilac Tentacles]

But almost every other president didnt do anything either just war

And your point?
Are you fighting it?
Are you losing years away from your family?
Is it directly affecting your life in any form?

[Possible]

Bambi, every other president does something, obama did shit taht ruined the economy, go jump on the back of a mule u jackass. god democrats are fuckin retarded

[bambi]

And your point?
Are you fighting it?
Are you losing years away from your family?
Is it directly affecting your life in any form?

Its my opinion, just like your opinining right now and probably getting pissed off at something not even worth getting mad for.

P.S: This does affect me and everyone else that has a heart for this world

[I_royalty_I]

But almost every other president didnt do anything either just war

Well that is most definitely not true. :P
Are you saying we should either be at war or there is no point? I don't get it.

[bambi]

Bambi, every other president does something, obama did shit taht ruined the economy, go jump on the back of a mule u jackass. god democrats are fuckin retarded

Really man why do you have to flame at my opinion?

[I_royalty_I]

P.S: This does affect me and everyone else that has a heart for this world

Her point was, are you in the military?
Is your family in the military?
Have you had loved ones die?
Grandparents you never knew?
I could go on and on.
Do you like war?

[bambi]

Well that is most definitely not true. :P
Are you saying we should either be at war or there is no point? I don't get it.

No im trying to say that its better without war, you guys understood wrong, im not for the war

[Lilac Tentacles]

I'm not getting mad. I'm simply stating that your argument is rather asinine since you seem to think it's either war or bust.

I'd rather have war. It stimulates the economy and pisses off the liberal hippies. Plus srsly dude: 120K tax free for a 9 month deployment and 3 months of pre-mob is a legit paycheck.

Peacetime makes me sick.

[bambi]

I'm not getting mad. I'm simply stating that your argument is rather asinine since you seem to think it's either war or bust.

I'd rather have war. It stimulates the economy and pisses off the liberal hippies. Plus srsly dude: 120K tax free for a 9 month deployment and 3 months of pre-mob is a legit paycheck.

Peacetime makes me sick.

See, she the one thats for war, Im just saying thatt its better to be without war ugh sorry for my english

[Skins]

for me, any politician does anything, if they knew how this Spain ..

[Possible]

I'm allowed to flame you, I've seen you flame peoples threads in a very asshole way and it was very unnecessary. and it's my b-day, I get 1 person to flame and it'd be you:)

[Azn]

When did CK get so conservative? lol.

[Lilac Tentacles]

When did 'Merrica get so damn hippie liberal??

This country was founded on guns and killing shit.

[Possible]

Your're either redneck or foreign!! xD. I myself live in Tennessee, not quite a redneck but I'm down for shootin shit and working. Not supporting people sitting at home and paying them good money.

[Lilac Tentacles]

Born in Texas, Raised in southern West Virginia.

I killed my first squirrel when i was 5. Skinned my first deer that same year.

Luuuurv killing things. Joined the Army at 17. I work. And i love it.

[bamag]

Its amazing how people from different parts of the United States can have such dramatic differences in their thinking.
Here in NYC, we find it uncomprehensible why people would vote for Romney over Obama.
Sell me on why Romney is better than Obama.

[Lilac Tentacles]

Romney =/= Obama

Which in turn = win

[bamag]

Romney =/= Obama

Which in turn = win

Interesting. I saw a poll that said only 35% of Romney voters are voting for him, and 63% are voting against Obama.

[Possible]

Romney doesn't need to be in the election, we need mccain or someone to go for the republicans.

[bamag]

Ron Paul and Jon Huntsman were the only Republican candidates that I liked at all. Interestingly enough, both were rejected by the general public.

[Lilac Tentacles]

I nominate me.

[Azn]

Born in Texas, Raised in southern West Virginia.

I killed my first squirrel when i was 5. Skinned my first deer that same year.

Luuuurv killing things. Joined the Army at 17. I work. And i love it.

Lol I assumed 2/3 of these things before you even mentioned them just from your previous posts.

[Lilac Tentacles]

Lol I assumed 2/3 of these things before you even mentioned them just from your previous posts.

Is that a bad thing? I always thought i was pretty awesome. :uncomfortableness:

I mean, if the zombie apocalypse happens any time soon, i'm not gonna die first.

[Possible]

Me neither, I've got plenty of guns and I'd go str8 to a bass pro down the street and sit ontop and have a blast. holy crap that'd be fun. Ah is it bad that I want that to happen now?

[Azn]

Is that a bad thing? I always thought i was pretty awesome. :uncomfortableness:

I mean, if the zombie apocalypse happens any time soon, i'm not gonna die first.

Nope it's not a bad thing :) If it's something that you're interested in, then by all means do it. I don't know about a 5 year shooting squirrels though :P

I don't like that you associate hippies with liberals because not all liberals are hippies and vice-versa lol.

[bambi]

I'm allowed to flame you, I've seen you flame peoples threads in a very asshole way and it was very unnecessary. and it's my b-day, I get 1 person to flame and it'd be you:)

What the fuck, Like i give a shit whos bd it is, and besides who the fuck have i flamed?

[Lilac Tentacles]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
bambi

You're totally a rude Jude.

No offense to anyone named Jude :D

[bambi]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
bambi

You're totally a rude Jude.

No offense to anyone named Jude :D

If you simply think im a flame then just ignore me just aswell as im ignoring both of you ;)

[Lilac Tentacles]

My feelings... i just don't think they can handle the rejection.

Oop, no wait.. they can't find a fuck to give.

[Becka]

That's not true!
All he did was approve it.
The real people that did that work were the people at the NSA, CIA, etc.
The people who spend the day to day trying to get tips and leads and bring these people down.
Do you know how they eventually found Osama? Chance.
There was an interesting show I saw a few months ago that went over things, definitely a good watch. :)

Oh.. The show may be on YouTube, I shall find it. Thanks for telling that there is one. And Obama just approved it? Ah :/

[Chi]

I really wish Mods stick to their rules in this section of the forums

These posts are SPAM worthy ;/ This isn't even a real debate.


Here are the guidelines and expectations you are to have when creating/debating in the Debate Zone!

All threads are subject to these rules! If you break them, then there will be consequences.

1) No Flaming/Harassment. If someone has different views than you, discuss it in a civil manner. Don't flame the other party's opinion.

2) NO SPAM!!!! Spam in this section is limited to less than 5 sentences. (This goes for the creator & posters).

3) SOURCES!!!! Everyone likes to use factual resources. If you back up you're debate, cite it and give credit! Nobody likes to plagiarize!

4) REPLIES must be a minimum of 3-5 sentences (Revised 12/27/11) Your replies must still be thoughtful and respectful on the pertained subject.

5) Breaking of any of these rules will result in a warning/infraction or banning you from this section temporarily.

6) The Debate Zone is solely used for the discussion/debate of hot topics in politics, or other issues around the globe. Any other discussions are to be posted in 'General Discussion'.

7) BE sure to HAVE FUN!!!!

If you're going to say 'x' person is a bad president, you should at least provide evidence and compare what/how he or she is bad compared to....

[Azn]

I really wish Mods stick to their rules in this section of the forums

These posts are SPAM worthy ;/ This isn't even a real debate.



If you're going to say 'x' person is a bad president, you should at least provide evidence and compare what/how he or she is bad compared to....

Unfortunately, I don't this section hasn't really been monitored since Ben got canned. Honestly, I stopped trying... But I would love to see what you have to say on the matter.

[iBeast]

That's not true!
All he did was approve it.
The real people that did that work were the people at the NSA, CIA, etc.
The people who spend the day to day trying to get tips and leads and bring these people down.
Do you know how they eventually found Osama? Chance.
There was an interesting show I saw a few months ago that went over things, definitely a good watch. :)

I remember that! Didn't one of there black hawks go down? ;o

[Becka]

You guys should be thankful you don't have George Bush anymore.

[Chi]

Unfortunately, I don't this section hasn't really been monitored since Ben got canned. Honestly, I stopped trying... But I would love to see what you have to say on the matter.


>.< Yeh I know, but it would be nice to see some logical discussions not just pure bashing each other.

I really don't think I should have a say here. Not american, and I think american politics are terrible, rigged and undermined by large corporations (capitalism). If I was american I would probably leave the country as soon as I could ;/

However, I don't see how Obama is bad compared to the conservatives, and your (Americans) previous president(s). At least he presents himself to the international community as an intellectual. I just don't think any of his actual policies are being accepted by the actual senate/whatever the equiv is like there (or so I've read)

[Azn]

>.< Yeh I know, but it would be nice to see some logical discussions not just pure bashing each other.

I really don't think I should have a say here. Not american, and I think american politics are terrible, rigged and undermined by large corporations (capitalism). If I was american I would probably leave the country as soon as I could ;/

However, I don't see how Obama is bad compared to the conservatives, and your (Americans) previous president(s). At least he presents himself to the international community as an intellectual. I just don't think any of his actual policies are being accepted by the actual senate/whatever the equiv is like there (or so I've read)

I would leave but I have too many family members here. Plus, I'm pretty accustomed to where I live, it's more liberal than conservative.

The reason why I won't vote for Romney is because he's an Obama that's conservative on social issues. Their healthcare plans are frighteningly similar for someone who calls himself the opposite of Obama.

In addition, he keeps citing Bain Capital as his economic experience, yet many of the companies that Bain Capital controlled at the time became bankrupted and many employees lost their jobs. So as for job creation, it's a bunch of BS.

[Ronith]

>.< Yeh I know, but it would be nice to see some logical discussions not just pure bashing each other.

I really don't think I should have a say here. Not american, and I think american politics are terrible, rigged and undermined by large corporations (capitalism). If I was american I would probably leave the country as soon as I could ;/

However, I don't see how Obama is bad compared to the conservatives, and your (Americans) previous president(s). At least he presents himself to the international community as an intellectual. I just don't think any of his actual policies are being accepted by the actual senate/whatever the equiv is like there (or so I've read)

Obama isn't the better of the two evils though.

In fact he caused a lot of collateral damage.

Here are some things he has done:

--Gave GM partially to the UAW
--Gave away Chrysler LLC to Fiat for free. Even though Magna International offered 6b USD for it.
Cerbreus capital management LLC didn't have to pay taxes while they had Chrysler for sale.
--Bailed out the banks.
--Cash for clunkers.

And......

Did Obama Target GOP Donors In Chrysler Dealer Closings?
You know it!


A tipster alerted me to an interesting assertion. A cursory review by that person showed that many of the Chrysler dealers on the closing list were heavy Republican donors.

To quickly review the situation, I took all dealer owners whose names appeared more than once in the list. And, of those who contributed to political campaigns, every single one had donated almost exclusively to GOP candidates. While this isn't an exhaustive review, it does have some ominous implications if it can be verified.




[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Oh, and he eliminated over 20k jobs! Good job!

[Becka]

Obama isn't the better of the two evils though.

In fact he caused a lot of collateral damage.

Here are some things he has done:

--Gave GM partially to the UAW
--Gave away Chrysler LLC to Fiat for free. Even though Magna International offered 6b USD for it.
Cerbreus capital management LLC didn't have to pay taxes while they had Chrysler for sale.
--Bailed out the banks.
--Cash for clunkers.

And......

Did Obama Target GOP Donors In Chrysler Dealer Closings?
You know it!






[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Oh, and he eliminated over 20k jobs! Good job!

Lol he sounds worse than George Bush.

[Chi]

Obama isn't the better of the two evils though.

In fact he caused a lot of collateral damage.

Here are some things he has done:

--Gave GM partially to the UAW
--Gave away Chrysler LLC to Fiat for free. Even though Magna International offered 6b USD for it.
Cerbreus capital management LLC didn't have to pay taxes while they had Chrysler for sale.
--Bailed out the banks.
--Cash for clunkers.

And......

Did Obama Target GOP Donors In Chrysler Dealer Closings?
You know it!






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Oh, and he eliminated over 20k jobs! Good job!

Yeh, like I said I don't have much to say because I'm not american.

I think a lot of things though like bailing out banks were a necessity because of the previous governments errors (and global errors).

(Plus not sure about the others, not familiar with the acronyms)

[Ronith]

Yeh, like I said I don't have much to say because I'm not american.

I think a lot of things though like bailing out banks were a necessity because of the previous governments errors (and global errors).

(Plus not sure about the others, not familiar with the acronyms)
It is a capatilist country. The banks should have failed.

[Becka]

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Lol ouch.

[Chi]

It is a capatilist country. The banks should have failed.

If the banks failed America would fail. Banks fund, small business, large business, government, households - everything.

Individuals/corporations would be borrowing from overseas (and even moving overseas 100x quicker than they are now - which means loss of jobs as well) which means cash-flow will be flowing out of the US constantly (good for other countries, terrible for the US). I'm not 100% how the economics works but it would significantly effect your $ and it would mean households would suffer greatly. Its not a pretty picture imo.

[I_royalty_I]

I remember that! Didn't one of there black hawks go down? ;o

Well I wasn't even talking about that.
I was talking about how they even found out he was in the complex in the first place :P

They weren't just like... oh hey let's give this a go and hope we get lucky!


Oh.. The show may be on YouTube, I shall find it. Thanks for telling that there is one. And Obama just approved it? Ah :/

I dunno if it was on youtube, but I saw it on TV.
And all he did was give the go ahead.
tbh they would have done it without his go ahead, but he is the president so they had to tell him.

[Ronith]

If the banks failed America would fail. Banks fund, small business, large business, government, households - everything.

Individuals/corporations would be borrowing from overseas (and even moving overseas 100x quicker than they are now - which means loss of jobs as well) which means cash-flow will be flowing out of the US constantly (good for other countries, terrible for the US). I'm not 100% how the economics works but it would significantly effect your $ and it would mean households would suffer greatly. Its not a pretty picture imo.
You make it sound like every single bank failed. It didn't. There were plenty of huge banks that didn't need bailouts(NOTa bridge loan.)
==

First, if banks were making loans that did not get paid back, then they were not doing their primary job which is to make good credit decisions. Bad credit decisions should be punished, and the owners and operators of such companies should be fired and/or wiped out. This is how markets work. Rewarding such behavior only encourages more bad practices in the future, and people (rightly) start to wonder why we have a financial system at all.

Second, if banks fail, that contraction in private financial asset growth can be balanced by “capitalizing” the rest of the non-Governmental sector directly (through some combination of tax cuts and spending increases — whatever increases the deficit). Since economists at Harvard and Princeton do not understand that the Government is the sole creator of net financial assets (equity) for the private sector, they do not know that this policy lever is on the table. So we are where we are.”

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[Chi]

You make it sound like every single bank failed. It didn't. There were plenty of huge banks that didn't need bailouts(NOTa bridge loan.)
==

First, if banks were making loans that did not get paid back, then they were not doing their primary job which is to make good credit decisions. Bad credit decisions should be punished, and the owners and operators of such companies should be fired and/or wiped out. This is how markets work. Rewarding such behavior only encourages more bad practices in the future, and people (rightly) start to wonder why we have a financial system at all.

Second, if banks fail, that contraction in private financial asset growth can be balanced by “capitalizing” the rest of the non-Governmental sector directly (through some combination of tax cuts and spending increases — whatever increases the deficit). Since economists at Harvard and Princeton do not understand that the Government is the sole creator of net financial assets (equity) for the private sector, they do not know that this policy lever is on the table. So we are where we are.”

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That's fair enough, I have a feeling they didn't want the banks to die because they wanted to keep the market competitive. In Australia there is a problem with having 4 big banks controlling the market and controlling interest rates (its why our dollar is so strong, and the house market is ridiculously overpriced for young Australians). Even though the government lowers interest rates the banks never pass on the reduction in full (only by a 1/4 of a percent for example)

[Narkotiq]

I hate Obama too but look at the alternative. I hate all of the main candidates. If I had to pick anyone to be in office I'd have to say Ron Paul but even then I dont feel too strongly about that either. Lets face it, these days it doesn't matter what we vote, they're all gonna fuck us.

[Becka]

I guess you're right Chi, so he pretty much told these soldiers they are allowed to risk their lives to save america or w/e.

[Chi]

I hate Obama too but look at the alternative. I hate all of the main candidates. If I had to pick anyone to be in office I'd have to say Ron Paul but even then I dont feel too strongly about that either. Lets face it, these days it doesn't matter what we vote, they're all gonna fuck us.

The problem I see with American politics from an outsider perspective is that you have no other party that has the chance to compete on even playing fields. Americans make politics a popularity contest, with all the rallies, parties and events. Makes the policy seem second place and the loyalty to a particular party seem more important.

[Azn]

Lol he sounds worse than George Bush.

Not worst than Bush. Bush accumulated to over 200k jobs lost each month.

Also, Ronith, you didn't mention that under Obama, there's been a net of 100k+ jobs created each month.
NABE predicts that it will actually be 188k per month this year.

But I want to bring up an interesting discussion question.
Who do you think will win? (Despite who you want to win)

[Becka]

Not worst than Bush. Bush accumulated to over 200k jobs lost each month.

Also, Ronith, you didn't mention that under Obama, there's been a net of 100k+ jobs created each month.
NABE predicts that it will actually be 188k per month this year.

But I want to bring up an interesting discussion question.
Who do you think will win? (Despite who you want to win)

Australians know nothing about the political government in America :C

[Narkotiq]

The problem I see with American politics from an outsider perspective is that you have no other party that has the chance to compete on even playing fields. Americans make politics a popularity contest, with all the rallies, parties and events. Makes the policy seem second place and the loyalty to a particular party seem more important.

I totally agree, a lot of the politicians I agree with are green party or other. They stand no chance in the election because they aren't the major Democratic or Republican party.

[Azn]

Oh it was a general question to everyone. Sorry, I quoted you but I meant to ask everyone that question.

[Ronith]

Not worst than Bush. Bush accumulated to over 200k jobs lost each month.

Also, Ronith, you didn't mention that under Obama, there's been a net of 100k+ jobs created each month.
NABE predicts that it will actually be 188k per month this year.

But I want to bring up an interesting discussion question.
Who do you think will win? (Despite who you want to win)

But what jobs did he create? How many factories in the USA have closed down under Obama. Nothing is being made in the USA anymore. And it very reapidly becoming a stage 4 production country. There is no incentive to create a factory in the USA with such insane regulations...

When he fucked up GM and Chrysler, over 200k+ jobs vanished.

Also, who do I think will win? Probably Obama, because of uneducated voters...Sad truth.

[I_royalty_I]

I'm wondering where these jobs are.
I'm looking for a new job right now, and it's tough to find one tbh.

The only places I know for sure that are mass hiring right now is the government.
They opened a new cyber center on Fort Meade which is gonna open up a TON of jobs here... but I don't know anything else big other than that.
The only things I have heard are jobs that are being lost.

Obama is the incumbent, so that right there is going to make it hard to beat him.
But his approval ratings are looking pretty shitty right now, so who knows.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 PM ----------


I really wish Mods stick to their rules in this section of the forums

These posts are SPAM worthy ;/ This isn't even a real debate.

If you're going to say 'x' person is a bad president, you should at least provide evidence and compare what/how he or she is bad compared to....

I moved it to general discussion.
TBH, I'd rather have an interesting thread where people are actually posting interesting things over those count to 10000 threads.
So I'll leave this post counting.

[Chi]

But what jobs did he create? How many factories in the USA have closed down under Obama. Nothing is being made in the USA anymore. And it very reapidly becoming a stage 4 production country. There is no incentive to create a factory in the USA with such insane regulations...

When he fucked up GM and Chrysler, over 200k+ jobs vanished.

Also, who do I think will win? Probably Obama, because of uneducated voters...Sad truth.

First I thought that maybe Chrysler went overseas so I wrote this
I don't think that has anything to do with government, as it is the same with many modern countries today. And its not Obama's fault? (Or any leaders fault - I don't know the story just taking from what is being posted) It would be corporation's fault due to them going overseas to save dollars (also happens here). To keep those particular jobs in America he'd have to spend money. And people don't seem to like him spending money ;/ So its a lose/lose situation.

But then I thought I better google it because it may not mean that.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] I found this, but it doesn't say anything about loosing jobs, it just talks about being bailed out and creating jobs in different sectors. What actually happened?

Edit; Thought I'd also add that there a job cuts worldwide in most industries, but if you really want a job you can always go overseas for and work for 1-2 years and then go back to the USA. Always jobs for people who can speak english. Only thing is that pay is relative to the countries currency and pricing.

[bamag]

You guys make it seem like what Obama did to the auto industry was bad when most political experts say that it was a good move by Obama.
Obama's auto industry bailout did more good than bad.
Romney wants tax cuts for the rich when they are already well off. He wants to cut federal student aid.
I don't know about you guys but most people I know can't afford to pay around $60,000 a year for education.
Oh and Obama has created a decent amount of jobs. There was a period of job losses in the earlier periods of his term but since then it has picked up: March 2010 through April 2012: +136,000 jobs per month.
Here's some interesting statistics from voters about Obama and Romney:
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[Ronith]

First I thought that maybe Chrysler went overseas so I wrote this
I don't think that has anything to do with government, as it is the same with many modern countries today. And its not Obama's fault? (Or any leaders fault - I don't know the story just taking from what is being posted) It would be corporation's fault due to them going overseas to save dollars (also happens here). To keep those particular jobs in America he'd have to spend money. And people don't seem to like him spending money ;/ So its a lose/lose situation.

But then I thought I better google it because it may not mean that.

I talked to Chrysler employees, and they were NOT pleased about what happened. Huge layoffs. Plants closed down....

[Only registered and activated users can see links] I found this, but it doesn't say anything about loosing jobs, it just talks about being bailed out and creating jobs in different sectors. What actually happened?

Edit; Thought I'd also add that there a job cuts worldwide in most industries, but if you really want a job you can always go overseas for and work for 1-2 years and then go back to the USA. Always jobs for people who can speak english. Only thing is that pay is relative to the countries currency and pricing.

Here you go.

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There is a list of suppliers, I have a physical copy of the list, trying to find it on teh internetz.

---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

That doesn't even include the chrysler dealers....

[davebold370]

Me personally. I think he tried his best. His best wasn't good enough. It was only good enough to keep our country a-float. Now it's time for him to step down. The only thing i really didn't like was him signing in the NDAA act which later was shot down by the supreme court as unconsitutional and the obamacare that he forced trhough. The obamacare would be ok if it didn't target companies and forced people to have insurance. I mean think about it, did the car insurance thing pan out? Did we drop the price of car insurance? Nope we sure didn't. It didn't even slow down. Now we are trying to do the same thing with our country. He knew from the begining that something like this wouldn't come out the way he planned it. To many cooks in the pot i say. Get our current congress out of office. I know I will not vote my current senator back in. The dumb ass agreed that us citizens should be arrested and detained without trail just because they protested...

Anyways, my obamacare/politic rant is over with. Have a nice day. :D