Abortions - Pro Choice or Pro Life? [Archive]

Chi

12-30-2011, 03:38 PM

Abortion is not murder. I've had this discussion on HB before. And being pro-life and actively protesting or putting down people who need abortions is just WRONG. You are potentially killing them by sticking your nose in their business. ALSO added before i just cut and paste my last response (sorry if it is a bit messy cbf fix it) that abortion pictures are FAKE and usually enhanced by pro-life groups to make a (false) statement.

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Choice up to the 21st week of gestation and then it should be illegal as brain cells start forming and pain can be felt (and thus its a form of abuse). If the pregnancy will kill the mother, there should be the option for the infant to be aborted.

Every month a woman aborts a potential child (period), the womb will naturally abort a fetus if there is a defect (sometimes it doesn't). Being pro-life means you should be attempting to conceive every month because having your period in a sense is abortion. If someone does not have a functioning brain then they are not alive and medically they are classified as brain dead. Their organs will continue to work if sustained calories (food) is provided but they only continue to live because doctors and machines permit them to live. The fetus UP until 21 weeks is the same. It is not technically a living human, it has the potential for sure but its brain dead and its been proven that brain function starts to occur around this 21 week mark. That's 84 days and plenty of time to decide if an individual wants to carry the child to term.

If someone falls pregnant who does not have the money, security or even love for the child why should they carry it to term? It will only cause the potential child more pain, suffering and grief.

I'm also pro sexual education (abstinence is not sexual eduction - increased sexual education>lower teen pregnancy rates>lower abortion rates), pro porn/legal brothels (studies show where there is more access to porn/sexual entertainment there are less cases of reported rape).

Yes and that is the problem, especially in third world countries and highly religious states where abstinence is taught over contraception.

First World Country Example.
"DON'T USE CONDOMS GOD SAYS NO"
-Teenagers be teenages, have sex, but decide not to use a condom because buying one would bring SHAME ON THEIR FAMILY, so they do it in secret-
BAM, Pregnant. Goes to get a back ally abortion because once again having an abortion with their parents knowing would equal SHAME. 75% of infection. Death to teenager.

Third World Country Example
Pope tells them "Don't use contraception, god says it is a sin (sinfulness = punishment will continue)"
People don't use condoms, too many children to sustain, family lives in poverty for the rest of their life. No safe abortion facilities available. Women die from unsafe abortions (just youtube documentaries to see for yourself). Also happens in the many rape cases there. It's not about keeping their legs closed. Its about women being second, being tools for men and having no control over their body.

The point is, don't be pro-life, being pro-life means that you are sticking your nose in other people's business, POTENTIALLY supporting a side that will close (Safe) abortion centers and therefore leading to unnecessary death of a living and self-functioning human being. You are also supporting the fact that women have no choice in what happens to their body.

If anything be neutral, be pro-sexual education and contraception ;3 Education is the key? Or so they say ;D

Azn

12-30-2011, 04:33 PM

"I think one of the biggest problems with the abortion debate is that the two sides aren't in direct opposition. The pro-life movement seeks to force their moral beliefs on others - grounded in their own religion or personal philosophy. The pro-choice movement doesn't make claims on the morality of abortion - we leave that as an individual choice for every woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy. If they feel abortion is wrong and they want to give their child up for adoption, or keep it, we will support their decision."

Not my words, but this is what I believe in. If you guys are interested, you can find a lot of pro choice reasons from MIT students here:
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Tay

12-30-2011, 05:17 PM

Chi, you are so beast. That post is epic and I pretty much agree with you. I think a woman should have choice, however if your baby is developed enough to be classified as human then abortion should be illegal. There needs to be a pregnancy term limit on whether you are illegible for abortion or not. I also believe that if the mother's life is at risk, then abortion could become a serious option.

Cara

12-30-2011, 11:27 PM

I am prochoice. What a woman does with HER body is up to her and her alone,
with the exception of the father having a say in the situation aswell of course.
But even he can't force her to abort or keep the child. I do find is horrible when a woman
has more than one abortion though, but I still believe she deserves her freedom of choice.
I also respect people who are pro-life, even if I don't agree with their opinions.
All in all, leave it to the mother to decide what she wants to do.

DarkAngel

12-31-2011, 01:00 AM

Chi's post is completely right. Having a baby would ruin a human's life forever if its not wanted, and also baby's life.

Abortion would an option to stop missery on many familys, and to stop the overcrowding.

We need more sexual education... MANY girls feels shame for asking for condoms/pills/contraceptives. That shouldnt be like that...
At least, I know many friends that they dont even like to talk about sex... What the fuck? Where did you came from? You're not 10-12 years darling...

We have to make porn EXPLICIT, why keep it implicit? Thats probably what makes kids watch it... Hidden, prohibited, only for adults... All what a kid needs to get interest on it.

They look at it, and they looks at these faces... They look like they're enjoying it, right? Why dont we test it?

And there goes another kid pregnant... She/he didnt know about contraceptives, they're 11 years old...

Thats the biggest problem.

Porn should be legal for all ages, and sexual education should start earlier.

No curiosity and know about the theme = Less unwanted pregnancies

Less unwanted pregnancies = Less aborts

Mouse

01-01-2012, 01:34 AM

I am pro choice, but I am against abortion. At the very least for my own body.
I do believe a woman should be able to commit abortion if she has been raped because that is a different situation where you had no choice in the matter, but even then (again, mainly thinking in my own perspective) I am more supportive of adoption after birth then abortion. Having said that is "ok" in a situation like that, I am far more against abortion when it's someones own fault ... Like a stupid teen "forgetting" a condom and then just getting the kid removed. I am firmly of the believe that people should bear the consequence of their own mistakes. When it comes to knowing a kid will be severely disabled ... I don't know. It might be unfair for the kid to be born, but it also a life ... So for that I don't know. I would consider abortion if I would know that when I would become pregnant, but I'm not sure if I really would be able to murder something in my own body...

Sci_Girl

01-01-2012, 12:07 PM

I am pro choice. I have a problem with kids having sex early but that is another discussion. But a woman has control over her own body and if she does not believe she can take care of the child mentally or physically then the option of abortion should be there for her. However, I do not support the party animal type person that ends up pregnant every few months because she sleeps with a new drunk 'friend' from the bar every weekend and does not want a child to get in the way of her further party times so she has several abortions. If you are not prepared to have a kid then use protection, whatever the method may be.

IndigoSunset

01-01-2012, 12:31 PM

I'm Pro Choice but tbh I don't like the labelling. Being pro-choice suggests you are somehow anti-life which is not true at all. I simply don't believe that a small ball of cells is more alive than, for example, a fly which I would have no qualms about killing.

Also, without wanting to make this too political, I think this is another example of great hypocrisy of right-wing people generally. They want less interference in people's lives but they also want the Government to prevent people from making a choice about their bodies. (I am of course generalising but, I believe, not unfairly)

I think the point I'd like to make is: People have different morals. There are some common principles amongst us nowadays, that we shouldn't have slavery for example. But there are lots of areas in which people disagree. And I think it is entirely arrogant for someone to think that they know what is best for someone else. And that is why I think the choice should rest with the woman. If a pregnant woman gets pregnant but is against abortion, she doesn't have to have an abortion, the decision rests with her. She retains the right to choose. And for me, feminism is at heart about the freedom of choice. If we ban abortions, we take a regressive step in the struggle for gender equality.

Myke

01-01-2012, 12:58 PM

Pro-life.
Have you seen abortion pictures thats horrible so much guys
I a always against abortion^_^

Azn

01-01-2012, 03:33 PM

Pro-life.
Have you seen abortion pictures thats horrible so much guys
I a always against abortion^_^

I can confirm that a lot of abortion pictures are either fake or of late pregnancies. My Aunt had an abortion before and she said those pictures look nothing like what she saw.

Also, if I'm pretty sure a lot of pro-life people have had eggs before. Eating an egg is like killing an innocent chick before it was born, yet people have no problem ordering a few at iHop's.

Tay

01-01-2012, 07:35 PM

My mother's friend got pregnant when she was fifteen years old. And her mother took her for an abortion but she was 5 months in and she would have to give birth first and then they kill the baby. At the time, her mother was like "You can't do that." and she was like "Uh, yeah, I totally can!" and her mother kept assuring "No, you can't. You are never gonna be able to live with yourself. You cannot do that!"

So she never got it done.

Now, if you speak to my mother's friend, she'll tell you that she's "so glad she didn't get an abortion." and that she listened to her mom. She said that at the time all she could think about is how she didn't wanna be a mother, but her mother was right. Having birth and then killing it would have been on her shoulders forever.

So with that being said, I believe there should be a limit to where you can get an abortion :3 If you have to pop the baby out first, no. It should be illegal.

Victoria

01-01-2012, 09:07 PM

I'm Pro Life. I don't agree on abortions at all. Yes even though its a choice, we have free will to do what we chose but its still wrong. The only way i would be okay with abortion is if it was because of rape. The ONLY WAY. Everyone that has been educated on sex correctly knows the consequences of it, if you have sex there is a chance of possible conception, which the responsibly you're taking when you spread those legs. Protected AND unprotected, you have the chance to get pregnant, now you have a human life inside of you. What happened if majority of the population believe in abortion, well then half of the people here wouldn't be alive. Even if it is a baby, its still alive, and unfortunately they cannot protect themselves, the don't have a say on whether to live or die, so i don't think its okay. Well what if you don't have money to properly suppose a child? That's your fault for spreading your legs then! If you cant suppose the baby, give it up for adoption! There are plenty of people out there that cannot conceive and want a child. I also don't suppose it because its not up to 2 people to make the decision on abortion, its only 1. For instance, what if the father wanted to keep the child and take care of it, but the mother, the person who is holding the child, doesn't want to, she can just kill it even if he wanted it. I don't find that fair at all. We all have the right to live. What's the difference between getting an abortion and killing a born, living infant? I mean if abortions are okay then why don't we just kill babies? In both cases they cant talk, they cant think for themselves, they are the same as they are inside of you with the exception that they are not as developed. We don't go around killing babies, people go to jail for doing that, so why is it okay for us to abort them? If you don't want to get pregnant, take birth control and double wrap it. If you're that scared then take the plan b pill. Would it help you if the fetus was killed by gun point?
Some people that i've known that have gotten an abortion tell me that they weren't ready yet blah blah they would have ruined their lives blah blah couldn't enjoy life...ohreally? Well alteast you have that option to live is all i have to say, you would rather kill because you were irresponsible and careless than to own up to your mistake and do the right thing and take care of it.

Well what if a 14 year old got pregnant, more than likely she doesnt have a job to take care of it and she doesnt have the proper education, the baby is going to go through a hard life because a child is taking care of a child, so now do you think its okay?
Nope, i still think its wrong. I think the girl needs to go through it, and as for raising the child, i think the parent then should step up and help. Why? Well if the parents were doing their jobs correctly, they would know that their 14 year old was out with her legs open, and if they didn't then i blame the parents fully for not properly educating their child on the repercussions of their actions and that they are letting their child out without knowing what they are doing.
I am not proud of it but i started having sex at 14, but i was smart, i knew what would happen, and thats why i was safe and careful about what i did. I've heard that im not smart and that im actually stupid for having sex at a young age, but guess what, im 20, soon to be 21, and im not pregnant. If i was to have gotten knocked up at a young age, that would have been my fault, i would have gotten a job, kept going to school, and done whatever i could have to my best ability, which is what everyone should do instead of getting an abortion. If you knew pregnancy was a chance of happening during sex, that was the risk you took to have your 30 minutes or however long of pleasure. I don't think anyone should die just because someone wanted a quick fuck, if you're scared to get pregnant, there are other options of enjoyment, like what what in the butt? or objects that dont knock you up. If you want the real thing then be ready to accept the consequences of what could happen.

( if i repeated myself im sorry lol, i tend to do that when i type, i ramble, a lot....)

Azn

01-01-2012, 10:52 PM

Chi

01-02-2012, 12:04 AM

That is a bit much. "What happened if majority of the population believe in abortion, well then half of the people here wouldn't be alive."
That is a harsh and critical statement that you are making with no references. Just because abortion facilities are available doesn't mean everyone is going to rush out to them. If anything having safe abortion centers and an understanding would decrease the chances of death to teenage girls who go and get back alley abortions because they are ashamed to go to a proper facility.

Have you ever imagined a scenario where a teenage boy and girl were too scared to use a condom because god (and the pope) said its sinful? Whose fault is it? Not everyone is exposed to the same sexual education. Do you know in some countries people are told that sperm will cure disease? That having unprotected sex cures aids?

As an example, latino immigrants in the United States often face cultural barriers to condom use. A study on female HIV prevention published in the Journal of Sex Health Research asserts that Latino women often lack the attitudes needed to negotiate safe sex due to traditional gender-role norms in the Latino community, and may be afraid to bring up the subject of condom use with their partners. Women who participated in the study often reported that because of the general machismo subtly encouraged in latino culture, their male partners would be angry or possibly violent at the woman's suggestion that they use condoms.[120] A similar phenomenon has been noted in a survey of low-income American black women; the women in this study also reported a fear of violence at the suggestion to their male partners that condoms be used.[121]
Perhaps even more troubling is the apparent fact of a telephone survey conducted by Rand Corporation and Oregon State University and published in the Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndromes that showed that belief in AIDS conspiracy theories among United States black men is linked to rates of condom use. As conspiracy beliefs about AIDS grow in a given sector of these black men, consistent condom use drops in that same sector. Female use of condoms, interestingly, was not similarly affected.[122]
In the African continent, condom promotion in some areas has been impeded by anti-condom campaigns by some Muslim[123] and Catholic clerics.[101] Among the Maasai in Tanzania, condom use is hampered by an aversion to "wasting" sperm, which is given sociocultural importance beyond reproduction. Sperm is believed to be an "elixir" to women and to have beneficial health effects. Maasai women believe that, after conceiving a child, they must have sexual intercourse repeatedly so that the additional sperm aids the child's development. Frequent condom use is also considered by some Maasai to cause impotence.[124] Some women in Africa believe that condoms are "for prostitutes" and that respectable women should not use them.[123] A few clerics even promote the idea that condoms are deliberately laced with HIV.[125]

Its not all flowers and peaches for everyone. That is why choice is so important, because they obviously had no choice during the sex (and possibly their entire relationship) to use a condom and therefore safe abortion clinics, extensive sexual education and easy access to birth control should be available.

Also people don't go around killing babies. Unless they are murders. As I stated before for someone to be classified as living they need to have consciousness.A living child has consciousness, anything with a functioning brain has consciousness. A brain dead patient does not have consciousness - thus brain death. A fetus under the 21st week of gestation does not have consciousness because it does not have a functioning brain.

Victoria

01-02-2012, 12:53 AM

@Bianca
Please don't take offense to this in anyway, I'm just stating my opinion.
I don't care what anybody says about safe sex, when you decide to have sex, you risk a pregnancy. Nothing is 100% effective besides abstinence. Your parents can teach you all they want but ultimately, it is your decision to have sex. Also, it is extremely hard to find a job at 14, especially with this economy, you would probably be working under the table and less than minimum wage. If you get pregnant at the age of 14, the responsible thing to do is to get an abortion... If you decide to go to college, there is no way you can work to pay for college and support that child, while getting all your studies done. To put your parents through all of that nonsense is also not the right way to go about it. They have enough on their plates dealing with their own children, they can't just also raise a grandchild. Chances are if you are 14, your parents are still working...

Lol its quite fine, its the debate section, we may have different opinions, i dont expect everyone to think like me, so no offense taken :)
With that whole thing you quoted, i'm only going by my experience so thats why i say that. At 14 i went to live with my mom because i didnt want to deal with my dad's rules. I was being a rebellious teenage. I personally think teenagers need a lot of guidance so they don't walk down the wrong path, but with my mom i never got any. She let me do what I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it. Now lets say that there are other parents like this, which there are i highly doubt my sad excuse for a mother is the only person who neglects their child, and they let their teenager run free and do whatever and she gets knocked up? Okay, yes it is the teenagers fault, but they are still a child themselves. If the parent was correctly taking care of their own child, none of that would happen. How do you think half of teenage pregnancy happens? The parents should have been paying more attention and or putting a lock down on them, but there are too many parents out there that don't give a shit about what their child does. If you're 14 and getting knocked up already, there is a problem...your 14 year old shouldn't even be out like that to get pregnant, they are either in like 8th grade or a freshman in high school. It's not right to abort the baby because the parents didn't do their job. You're right, the parents do have enough on their plates dealing with their own children, so teenage pregnancy shouldn't happen and if it does i completely and entirely blame the parent. Now once you're 18, thats another ball field, they are an adult.

I mean there is that like 5% i can disagree with myself on this because no matter how good your parenting is, your child could be devious and still go behind your back and lie to you constantly and you might never know, ultimately yes it their decision to have sex, but like i said, the parent should be there 150% with you while you're growing up so that doesn't happen. If your child is 18 and gets knocked up, well then that is their fault, they are legally an adult and they should be making adult decisions.

I'm not sure this made sense lol, it sounds a lot better in my head.

Sci_Girl

01-02-2012, 01:17 AM

If the parent was correctly taking care of their own child, none of that would happen.

An individual with a damaged past cannot lay blame on all parents as the route cause of teenage pregnancy just because they have endured a harmful parental relationship themselves. Like you said there are plenty of good parents out there who guide their children, loved their children, and cared for children and yet their little Missy may still decide she is mature enough to go around spreading her legs for the boys at a party. Those parents should not be absolutely without a doubt required to take care of that baby because their child wanted to be a rebel. That child should take care of their child, they chose to have sex and if that baby is to be born then that young child should get a job to pay for their new baby. But the teens that bother me the most are the ones that treat a child like some bump in the road with the attitude of "whatever it does not matter if I get pregnant mommy will pay for everything!".

Victoria

01-02-2012, 02:06 AM

If anything having safe abortion centers and an understanding would decrease the chances of death to teenage girls who go and get back alley abortions because they are ashamed to go to a proper facility.
They would have nothing to be ASHAMED unless they knew what they were doing is wrong. Like i said previously, that teenage girl should have thought about the consequences before hand.

Have you ever imagined a scenario where a teenage boy and girl were too scared to use a condom because god (and the pope) said its sinful? Whose fault is it? Not everyone is exposed to the same sexual education.
Okay, lets say that they we're to scared to because its sinful....lets also say they were educated on sex slightly and they know that having sex has a chance of conception...then they shouldn't have had the sex to begin with. I don't think they were forced to have sex either so they had the free will to NOT HAVE SEX. So no, that is still their fault.

Latino women often lack the attitudes needed to negotiate safe sex due to traditional gender-role norms in the Latino community, and may be afraid to bring up the subject of condom use with their partners. Women who participated in the study often reported that because of the general machismo subtly encouraged in latino culture, their male partners would be angry or possibly violent at the woman's suggestion that they use condoms.
This is in the United States....you're too afraid to us a condom? If you are in fear that your partner will be angry and may or may not be violent with you, leave him? Thats still no excuse to have an abortion. Grow a pair of balls and leave the relationship. What is this Latino community...we're all human right? Since when did race make a difference.

A similar phenomenon has been noted in a survey of low-income American black women; the women in this study also reported a fear of violence at the suggestion to their male partners that condoms be used.
Once again with the race thing, we're all human so i don't think black, white, asain, hispanic have anything to do with this. Once again, if you fear of violence, leave. These are surveys of the people in the USA, where we have should have plenty of education ( note that i am aware some people still do not receive the proper education still ).
But with that being said, if people arent receiving the proper education, then why are we allowing them to abort?

In the African continent, condom promotion in some areas has been impeded by anti-condom campaigns by some Muslim[123] and Catholic clerics.[101] Among the Maasai in Tanzania, condom use is hampered by an aversion to "wasting" sperm, which is given sociocultural importance beyond reproduction. Sperm is believed to be an "elixir" to women and to have beneficial health effects. Maasai women believe that, after conceiving a child, they must have sexual intercourse repeatedly so that the additional sperm aids the child's development. Frequent condom use is also considered by some Maasai to cause impotence.[124] Some women in Africa believe that condoms are "for prostitutes" and that respectable women should not use them.[123] A few clerics even promote the idea that condoms are deliberately laced with HIV.[125]
Okay, so if we KNOW this is going on, why hasn't anyone properly educated them? They are allowing people to think this, if that is their belief then so be it, but don't allow them to have abortions. Plain and simple. I don't care religion you have, its still not right, plan and simple.

therefore safe abortion clinics, extensive sexual education and easy access to birth control should be available.
they are available.....spermicide, birth control, condoms, sexual education classes are available. That's why I don't believe in abortion, we have been given tools to prevent pregnancy from happening, but people arent using them, that's not anyones fault but theirs. Okay you said that these Africans believe that sperm is good, then take birth control, if they have abortion clinics to their access, then i think they can get ahold of some birth control.

As I stated before for someone to be classified as living they need to have consciousness.A living child has consciousness, anything with a functioning brain has consciousness. A brain dead patient does not have consciousness - thus brain death. A fetus under the 21st week of gestation does not have consciousness because it does not have a functioning brain.
Okay so im going to guess you are putting the brain dead patient in the same category as the undeveloped fetus? If thats the case, then why don't we just kill them too? I mean its one less person living (technically not living) in this world and obviously they arent doing anything but taking up space....but thats wrong to do, we dont go around killing brain dead people so why does that mean we can go around killing fetuses? Undeveloped fetus or not, conscious or not its still human. Coma patients, i consider them brain dead, they cant do anything, so why dont we just unplug them all then. A human is a human, no matter in size.

---------- Post added at 02:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 AM ----------

That child should take care of their child, they chose to have sex and if that baby is to be born then that young child should get a job to pay for their new baby. But the teens that bother me the most are the ones that treat a child like some bump in the road with the attitude of "whatever it does not matter if I get pregnant mommy will pay for everything!".
I'm not sure if what i said got mixed up but what i meant was the child should take care of their own child yes, if the child goes out and wants to be rebellious regardless if the parent had correct discipline then the parent shouldn't have to take care of the child, but if you have a parent that allows their child to be rebellious because they want to slack off at being a parent then i think they should help, or atleast help along the way of a safe delivery and then put the baby up for adoption.

Some of these pro-life arguments sound like they are saying that child bearing should be a punishment because it's the "mother's damn fault for spreading her legs." First of all, that's pretty sexist considering it takes TWO people. People have sex. It feels good, it's natural. Secondly, being forced to raise a kid is not ideal.
It does take two people, but im assuming we're talking about two people having consensual sex, they both know the possibilities of what could happen. If you're going to have sex with someone, that's you're choice, but if you have for a doubt that the other person wouldn't take of the child if it did happen, then dont do it if thats what you're afraid of. Yes people have sex, im aware of that, but im aware of contraception, it doesnt work 100% of the time, and this is the chance you take with having sex. Thats no excuse for anything, i still dont believe in killing a baby just to get a good lay in. And killing a baby is ideal?

Adoption isn't an easy choice to make either. Once the baby pops out, it's human instinct to change your mind and want to keep the baby. I mean, you're be taking care of something living inside your body for three quarters of a year. Not very many people would have an easy time giving their child away after that, even if they know they won't be able to care for it properly. So to save the grief, it's better to just not let it happen in the first place.
Okay so what if they do decide to take care of their own child? That's a bad thing? i'm not saying that forcing someone to take care of a child is the way to go, believe me its not, so instead of letting that happen, have safer sex? I highly doubt that all of these pregnancies that are happening are from faulty protection. Its from no protection. Well it doesn't feel as good with it on so i dont want to wear it, well then you take the risk of getting pregnant, use birth control then. We have all these pregnancies from basically lack of protection, i dont think its right that a fetus has to die because someone didnt wanna wrap it before they tapped it.

Chi

01-02-2012, 02:19 AM

They would have nothing to be ASHAMED unless they knew what they were doing is wrong. Like i said previously, that teenage girl should have thought about the consequences before hand.

That is the problem. There is nothing wrong with sex. Sex is natural and its a natural instinct that starts as soon as women begin to menstruate. The ONLY reason that its frowned down upon is because society starts to generate norms and when those norms are broken it becomes a problem.

I'm not discriminating due to race. I am simply referencing a psychology article which differentiates responses based on culture. So what if its america? Last time I checked america has its problems too. Women cannot simply leave a violent relationship, where the man controls and manipulates it. There are a lot of underlying factors that you are skipping over and it might not be as simple as the women spreading her legs.

I also think there is a difference between not receiving proper sexual education and assuming that individuals 'allows them to abort'. A proper education is needed to educate teenagers about sex. A lot of places in america and across the world don't advocate safe sex. They advocate abstinence. Abstinence doesn't work, teenagers experiment with drugs, alcohol, speeding, smoking...you name it, one or more will try it.

And about your comments about easy access to education+birth control and references on how easy it is to fix....Its not easy. Its not easy for some people to get access to the things that we take for granted. I'm not really going to delve into this because I'm pretty sure I'd break some forum rules doing so but I think you need to watch some youtube videos about women in abusive relationships, restrictive relationships, women in 3rd world countries and the laws surrounding women. Where they don't have sexual education classes nor the money or ability to access birht control. Where they don't have access to schooling or general knowledge. Where they have far too many children which they can't provide for which causes more pain for themselves and their child. ;_;

I suggest this link as well: [Only registered and activated users can see links]
Although its a wiki article I'd say the article isn't bias like some websites are.

And what is wrong with putting an brain dead patient in the same category as an undeveloped fetus? Both are unable to function on their own. If it wasn't for hospitals a brain dead patient body would collapse within a couple of days. They are technically dead. Without a functioning brain they are just an empty shell. And yes, you don't go around 'killing them' because they are already dead. A patient in a coma is different. Whilst there are different levels of comas there are some machines that track brain waves and functions. They are living to an extent because brain function is still happening (brain is controlling breathing for example). Likewise the fetus UP UNTIL THE 21ST WEEK does not have a functioning brain, its an empty shell comprised of cells that has the POTENTIAL to be a child, just like a chicken egg has the potential to hatch into a chicken but its nothing more than that.

Purple

01-02-2012, 10:59 AM

I would leave it to the professionals. It depends who the woman is, If the woman is someone close to me, I will let them make the choice.

I said I would not support abortion.

Abortion is a choice.

Choosing between one life and another is a different scenario.

I will not support abortion.

That's so biasst,
so just because you dont know one of my best friends you would say NO KEEP IT even IF (this hasn't happened but if it did) she was dying because she got raped, on top of that she got aids from the rapist?

Everyone has a choice.
Human rights.
Just do what you feel is right, you dont need to listen to the magazines and comics telling you what to do.
Live your life how you want to, if you want to get an abortion so be it, its life.
lifes a bitch.

Meagan

01-03-2012, 04:22 AM

I don't want to offend anyone but I wanted to post my ultra sound picture, I was 11 weeks and 2 days pregnant in this photo.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I personally couldn't abort this baby once I had my second ultra sound here, she clearly looked like a human, I could see her jumping around on the screen. This is my experience, I recently found out my partner of 4 years was cheating shortly after becoming pregnant, I was facing this pregnancy and parenting as a single parent from the start. I wasn't blind sided. This was just the easy stuff, when I was 13 I was diagnosed with severe kidney disease and said I would have failure in 10 years, I'm 23 now, no failure as of yet. My disease can't be cured as of yet, so I was facing losing all functioning of my kidneys before even making it into the 3rd trimester. I had an extremely hard pregnancy, twice weekly appointments (sometimes 3) and over 30 ultrasounds, I was on a lot of medications, I became pre eclamptic and had gestational diabetes. I could have gotten an abortion, this was what the doctors recommended, I chose not to.

If this became illegal I would be very scared for the women that would go through many means to have it done, the backwoods clinics, coat hanger, etc. It is a choice but a very difficult decision. I was very pro choice before getting pregnant, after having a baby I look at it differently, I feel there is always adoption, government assistance to help you finish school/whatever you need to support a child, you would not believe what all is out there if you've not be in a similar position.

I watched an abortion on the ultra sound machine being performed, the baby was struggling to get away from the needle and actually dodged it a few times. It was heart breaking. Of course now I'm biased as I have a baby, I was faced with many difficulties but it was my choice to attempt having a child. Honestly, unless you have children, I'm sure most of the pro choice/and pro life opinions will change if you ever go through an unplanned pregnancy. Having a child, the overwhelming love you feel for this thing is kind of insane, I thought I would never care for anything or anyone like I do for my daughter, I read while you're pregnant your brain changes, I'm not sure what trimester though. It had said your brain shrinks in preparation of the baby, they call it "baby brain", you become forgetful but it helps you grow empathy and prepares you for the baby. I'm rambling now.

Anyways, until you're faced in a situation like this it's hard to say what you would do, sometimes it takes seeing your child for the first time to feel that love and actually be glad you didn't choose abortion or you may not give a damn. Some people aren't meant to be parents, but taking that right away from them would be worse for children, the abuse they may endure, neglect, etc. Pro choice for others, but pro life when it comes to my body.

Azn

01-03-2012, 10:49 PM

Meagan

I feel the same way, even though I'm a guy. I'm a gay guy, so chances are that unless I get a baby through surrogacy, I'll become a father from adopting. I can only imagine what it's like to look down and see a small child that resembles yourself. I don't see why people who give up the opportunity to be a loving parent to this small baby and watch him or her grow. That's why I always say that if I were a woman, I would not go through an abortion myself, but that doesn't mean other women shouldn't be given the opportunity to choose.

I stand by you with that issue. I am Pro-Choice but if it were me, I wouldn't go through with an abortion.

Kyra

01-04-2012, 06:09 AM

Okay so im going to guess you are putting the brain dead patient in the same category as the undeveloped fetus? If thats the case, then why don't we just kill them too? I mean its one less person living (technically not living) in this world and obviously they arent doing anything but taking up space....but thats wrong to do, we dont go around killing brain dead people so why does that mean we can go around killing fetuses? Undeveloped fetus or not, conscious or not its still human. Coma patients, i consider them brain dead, they cant do anything, so why dont we just unplug them all then. A human is a human, no matter in size.

I have a lot to say on this topic, but right now I just want to point this out - we do unplug patients who are brain dead. If a person is damaged beyond possible recovery - that is to say, their brain is unable to keep the body alive by itself, their brain is unresponsive and the patient needs machines in order to keep them alive - then a doctor will tell this to the family, and the family makes the decision (unless the patient has specified in a will that should this occur they either do or do not want to be kept alive artificially, or they named someone in the will specifically to make that decision).

Just as a family can choose if they will or won't pull the plug, based on a variety of factors such as the chance of recovery, what kind of life the person would have if they did wake up, and if they can afford to keep the person alive via machines, I believe a woman should be able to choose if she will or won't have a baby, often based on similar factors.

I'll come back and post more later, but basically my position is that if you do not support abortion, then don't have one. Honestly the decision of whether or not you should keep a baby is extremely intimate and personal, and every woman will have different things to consider if they become pregnant unexpectedly. It's not a black and white issue. Being pro-choice is not being anti-life - we're not saying that if you get pregnant you have to go out and have an abortion, too bad. Pro-choice is simply believing that women should have the option of terminating a pregnancy in a safe, effective and timely manner, and that decision is up to them, their partner and possibly their doctor.

I can respect people who believe abortions are morally wrong, but I cannot respect people who attempt to take away the choice of terminating a pregnancy from others based on their own opinion. I wouldn't force a woman to have an abortion against her will, so why should someone be allowed to force me to have a child against my will?

There is a wealth of scientific evidence on infant development in regards to sensory perception, pain, etc., and medical regulations have been put in place that reflect this evidence - abortions past a certain number of weeks are not allowed unless the mother's life is in danger. Beyond that we're in the realm of personal morality, religion, "souls", etc, and if you believe one thing you cannot expect the person next to you to believe the same, nor can you truly state that they're wrong or immoral for their beliefs, even if you think so.

And just for the record, 99% of the pictures you find on the internet if you look up abortion are either fake or mislabeled. Some anti-choice groups (I won't call them pro-life) have even been known to steal stillborn babies from hospitals and say it's an aborted fetus. I'm not joking. So be weary of what you find; unless it's from a reliable source like a medical journal or reputed organization, chances are it isn't real.

Finally, facts on abortion that might surprise you:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

PoisonChaos

01-05-2012, 11:57 AM

I feel that in some cases such as rape, if it be by anyone that she should have the option if she wants to get rid of the baby. I understand that some people can get past that and raise the baby. But you have to wonder everytime she looks at the child if shes thinking. " Wow I was raped." No child should have to grow up with that, or feel like that in anyway. I know some people can move past it, but I couldn't I mean its a constant reminder of what happen to you. With time it might get better but there is no way to know for sure. It should really be the Womans choice if she wants to or not. Its her body she can do what she likes with it, I don't think its right if the parents get to decide what happens to their daughter just cause shes like 12-16 Like come on.

Jesedmoga

01-05-2012, 12:07 PM

IndigoSunset

01-05-2012, 12:17 PM

The only problem I think would have the Pro-choice is the overuse. I think you should be able to choice wheter to gave birth or not ONLY when you get raped or somehow abused; but girls of about 16 who only think about using their girly stuff before christmas eve should face their responsability.

In less words: Pro Life and pro Choice are the best option, depending of the situation. (Abuse = Choice, "Self Abuse" = life)
Ok, I disagree with the principles of that argument but let's stick with it for a moment. The conviction rate for rape in the UK is horrendously low(only 6.5% even of those reported resulted in rape convictions and Govt estimates that 95% aren't even reported Source. ([Only registered and activated users can see links])). It is similar in the USA. So if you're going to say that abortion should only be allowed in the case of rape, how are you going to decide when a rape has happened? Based on convictions? Most rapes don't come anywhere near conviction. Based on reporting? Most rapes aren't even reported. Would you require 'proof' of rape in order to permit an abortion? And of what would that 'proof' consist?

Duckii

01-05-2012, 07:12 PM

Ok, I disagree with the principles of that argument but let's stick with it for a moment. The conviction rate for rape in the UK is horrendously low(only 6.5% even of those reported resulted in rape convictions and Govt estimates that 95% aren't even reported Source. ([Only registered and activated users can see links])). It is similar in the USA. So if you're going to say that abortion should only be allowed in the case of rape, how are you going to decide when a rape has happened? Based on convictions? Most rapes don't come anywhere near conviction. Based on reporting? Most rapes aren't even reported. Would you require 'proof' of rape in order to permit an abortion? And of what would that 'proof' consist?
I have to agree with you. I'm very pro-choice. Women should have the power over their own bodies.

Carrot

01-05-2012, 07:51 PM

Pro-choice. I think people should be able to decide what they want to do. If a woman gets raped and gets pregnant, she should not be forced to keep the baby as a reminder.

whatareyoudoingomgSTOP

01-07-2012, 04:50 AM

because i love chi im editing this out

Chi

01-07-2012, 05:28 AM

How old are you? 2?

Okay so menstruation is aborting an unfertilized egg.
Just because an egg is fertilized doesn't make it a human being. Its not classified as a human until it has a functioning brain. My point is that if you are pro-life you accept that abortion is wrong from day 1, but you should also be pro-life from the time the egg is ready to be fertilized. What difference does that cell (the ova or sperm) from the cells that are developing at day 2? None (besides the fact that they have 46 chromosomes - sometimes less). They are just cells that have the potential to develop into a human.

whatareyoudoingomgSTOP

01-07-2012, 05:35 AM

because i love chi i dont want him to hate me i just i really like him

Chi

01-07-2012, 05:51 AM

Edit; I'm also a woman.

I just think your argument is pathetic and not even thought out.

Just because an egg is fertilized it does not make it human. It's just another cell. It has the POTENTIAL to develop into a human, and when there is a functioning brain it can be classified as a human but up until that point its just a group of cells that have developed to a certain point.

The body can naturally abort this as well - which to me is a sign that the body may abort it because it believes its a foreign and dangerous object. Miscarriages generally happen BEFORE the brain is formed (20 - 21 weeks)

What is a miscarriage?
Miscarriage is the loss of a pregnancy in the first 20 weeks. (In medical articles, you may see the term "spontaneous abortion" used in place of miscarriage.) About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, and more than 80 percent of these losses happen before 12 weeks.
This doesn't include situations in which you lose a fertilized egg before a pregnancy becomes established. Studies have found that 30 to 50 percent of fertilized eggs are lost before or during the process of implantation – often so early that a woman goes on to get her period at about the expected time.
What causes a miscarriage?
Between 50 and 70 percent of first-trimester miscarriages are thought to be random events caused by chromosomal abnormalities in the fertilized egg. Most often, this means that the egg or sperm had the wrong number of chromosomes, and as a result, the fertilized egg can't develop normally.

Sometimes a miscarriage is caused by problems that occur during the delicate process of early development. This would include an egg that doesn't implant properly in the uterus or an embryo with structural defects that prevent it from developing.

When the fertilized egg has chromosomal problems, you may end up with what's sometimes called a blighted ovum (now usually referred to in medical circles as an early pregnancy failure). In this case, the fertilized egg implants in the uterus and the placenta and gestational sac begin to develop, but the resulting embryo either stops developing very early or doesn't form at all.
Because the placenta begins to secrete hormones, you'll get a positive pregnancy test and may have early pregnancy symptoms, but an ultrasound will show an empty gestational sac. In other cases, the embryo does develop for a little while but has abnormalities that make survival impossible, and development stops before the heart starts beating.

If the body can naturally abort a embryo up to 20 weeks of pregnancy then it must be a natural process that happens every day - therefore its not unnatural to have abortions. Furthermore if you are pro-life for religious reasons and god chooses to abort a child at 20 weeks then does that make him immoral for murdering a fetus?

whatareyoudoingomgSTOP

01-07-2012, 05:58 AM

If the body can naturally abort a embryo up to 20 weeks of pregnancy then it must be a natural process that happens every day - therefore its not unnatural to have abortions. Furthermore if you are pro-life for religious reasons and god chooses to abort a child at 20 weeks then does that make him immoral for murdering a fetus?

God is the creator of life, and He can control it. when He believes that a fetus is unfortunately not meant to be, then so be it. God, the controller of life, created us, He didnt create us to control life. God created animals and gave animals the function to reproduce. when God created a little egg cell to reproduce with a sperm cell, He is beginning life and you are insulting Him by not letting His work happen. God has his reasons for what He does. Even if you don't understand it, you just have to trust Him that he has the best intentions, that's called faith.

Chi

01-07-2012, 06:36 AM

God is the creator of life, and He can control it. when He believes that a fetus is unfortunately not meant to be, then so be it. God, the controller of life, created us, He didnt create us to control life. God created animals and gave animals the function to reproduce. when God created a little egg cell to reproduce with a sperm cell, He is beginning life and you are insulting Him by not letting His work happen. God has his reasons for what He does. Even if you don't understand it, you just have to trust Him that he has the best intentions, that's called faith.

And there we go ladies and gentlemen.

There are people that don't believe in god or the same god as you. Therefore they are not subject to the same laws. Therefore you should have the CHOICE to do what you want and they should have the choice to do what they want. If your god doesnt want you to abort - then dont. If they want to - its their choice.

Mouse

01-07-2012, 06:52 AM

But if God did not want us to do anything else than to obey his wishes; Why did he give us a will of our own and did he not simply make us have a slave state of mind?

Evelsaint

01-07-2012, 09:11 AM

Well there isn't enough space in heaven so he let's you choose to sin or not.

It's a choice but most people end up going to hell either way.

IndigoSunset

01-07-2012, 09:32 AM

So if you're going to say that abortion should only be allowed in the case of rape, how are you going to decide when a rape has happened?
Still waiting for an answer from someone who thinks abortion should only be permitted in rape cases.

you are insulting Him by not letting His work happen.
If 'god' is omnipotent, as I think most major Western religions say he is, how can a puny little human stop his work from happening? Maybe it was part of this 'god's plan that a woman should get an abortion- if he disagreed, he could easily make it medically impossible.

Well there isn't enough space in heaven so he let's you choose to sin or not.
This omnipotent 'god' couldn't even create an infinite heaven? What sort of omnipotence is this?

Evelsaint

01-07-2012, 05:09 PM

Chi

01-07-2012, 05:16 PM

Okay Indigo, let's not blow things out of proportion. I never said he was omnipotent.

In fact, I believe God is a wrathful god, his angels are his warrior, destroying man kind and recreating it. If you read the different Bibical works, There are different versions of "God".

That's if he does exist.

However, Creation is the greatest miracle. The Miracle of life, pure innocence, a baby born with a clean slate and uncharted potential. When you knowingly take that potential away, it becomes murder.

You stamp out the seed of life. So if you don't care, or it doesn't matter to you, :/

Don't want?

Adoption.

Please do not flush them down the toilet or wrapped them in plastic bags :x

God arguments are stupid. If god is all powerful why is there a capacity limit on heaven?
If he is pro-life why does he let people get slaughtered all across the world?
Why does he condone war and rape (look in the bible)

God arguments are not valid arguments for any discussion because if you were born in a country such as India you wouldn't even believe in the christian god. If you were born in china you wouldn't believe in ANY god. Do those BILLIONS of people go to hell because they don't believe in that particular type of god? What makes your god right and theirs wrong? What if you go to hell (or their substitute) for worshiping a false god?

Its irrational and illogical to set rules and regulations based on religious teachings because of the range of religions and non-religions. Therefore there should be a CHOICE in the decision and it should be left up to the woman and man to keep or abort the baby. It does not affect you in any way what so ever. Let them do what they want because they let you do what you want.

EDIT: And you are saying adoption is simple. Its not. Its expensive - some countries restricted to heterosexual couples (not homosexual) who can already conceive theirselves so why would they fork out another 500k$ minimum to raise a child over 15 years? There are millions of children already up for adoption all across the world. If adoption was so simple then why are their orphans. Its not simple. Its costly and if you are from a low-social economic background you have less chance of being adopted (also if you are black you have less chance or someone with a mental disability).

Sci_Girl

01-07-2012, 05:51 PM

The Miracle of life, pure innocence, a baby born with a clean slate and uncharted potential. When you knowingly take that potential away, it becomes murder.

I am curious. What about the children born with severe genetic problems that once born guarantees the child will die, and unfortunately some born with certain conditions will suffer an insurmountable amount of pain. Essentially giving birth to a child who you will watch die a slow painful death. Example, Duchenene Muscular Dystrophy. If a parent sees that their child will be born with this condition what is your stance of the miracle that will be born, through the choice of parents, to have a painful life with the guarantee they will die and not be able to live a normal life because the condition renders them incapable of everything from talking to walking due to the degeneration of muscles.

Other examples:

- Tay-Sachs disease. A fatal genetic condition that will leave a child with severe mental and physical retardation. If your child has Tay-Sachs they will die before their 9th birthday in most cases, but genetic testing is there.
- Trisomy 18, Edward's Syndrome. If a child is born with this trisomy they will have severe abnormalities of the heart and kidney. Babies with Trisomy 18 have a higher than 90% chance of death within the first few days if the child is even born, less than 1% make it to 1 year old.
- Trisomy 13, Patau Syndrome. Genetic disease in which severe physical abnormalities occur including polydactyly (multiple digits), kidney abnormalities, facial abnormalities, mental challenges, and heart defects. Less than 20% survive their first year of life.
-Neimann-Pick Disease (Type A). Fatal genetic metabolic condition. The baby will have profound brain damage, fatally large liver and spleen and will die before they are 3 years old.

IndigoSunset

01-07-2012, 06:07 PM

Okay Indigo, let's not blow things out of proportion. I never said he was omnipotent.

In fact, I believe God is a wrathful god, his angels are his warrior, destroying man kind and recreating it. If you read the different Bibical works, There are different versions of "God".
If your god is a vengeful god then why does it matter that abortion goes against his plan?

However, Creation is the greatest miracle. The Miracle of life, pure innocence, a baby born with a clean slate and uncharted potential. When you knowingly take that potential away, it becomes murder.

You stamp out the seed of life. So if you don't care, or it doesn't matter to you, :/
Original sin argument aside on the 'clean slate' principle, am I to presume from that that you've never squashed a bug? That is a newly created life with a clean slate. Would I be right in also presuming that you would never step on an acorn? After all, they have such huge potential. Heck, now I come to think about it, I reckon most oak trees produce more measurable 'good' in the world than the average oak tree(Though obviously that's in terms of biological factors and doesn't take into account kinship and love etc so don't jump on that as a big part of my argument ;))

Don't want?

Adoption.

Please do not flush them down the toilet or wrapped them in plastic bags :x
Much easier said than done. Plus, there is still the ~9 month pregnancy plus the pain of childbirth itself. Not to mention of course that abortions aren't just used by people who want to 'dodge responsibility'. If the mother's life is put in danger by continuing to be pregnant, do you still think this is murder? That a tiny ball of cells should be put before the potential of a young woman with potentially her whole life ahead of her?

goes to show people just hate when someone is religious.
Not at all, you're quite welcome to your views. However, this being the debate section, if you make a post which I believe to be illogical and incorrect then I will gladly challenge your view (as I and others did) whether you're religious or not :)

Mango

01-07-2012, 06:45 PM

Everyone should have the choice to get an abortion if they feel they're not ready to become a parent. The world doesn't need anymore fucked up parents who don't know how to control their children and let them run wild. I'm all for Pro Choice.

Mouse

01-07-2012, 07:28 PM

Well there isn't enough space in heaven so he let's you choose to sin or not.

It's a choice but most people end up going to hell either way.

According to the bible even prostitutes, sinners and criminals go to heaven, as long as they love and try to be a good person.
If God would be all loving, he would not be so cruel to the people he created. And yes, this is being said by someone who believes in higher powers, but who also believes God is not a single parent.

Evelsaint

01-07-2012, 10:10 PM

Haha, I love playing the devil's advocate. First of all, let us pretend that GOD has nothing to do with whether abortion should be legal or no.

SO where does that leave us?

Abortion being legalized will lead to a whole shit storm of legality. Can the woman abort the baby without the permission of the father of the child? Can parents FORCE their underage daughters to abort the baby? You would have so many more woman having unprotected sex just because they know they can get an abortion if anything happens, so this increases the rate of STI/STDs that is so rampant among the Youth. Kids these day as young as 13-14 have already experimented with sex and quite a few have STI's as a tag along gift.

Also, have any of you heard of the the female infanticide going on?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I mean the situation is already bad enough as it is in other parts of the world. Once abortion becomes legalize, the status quo changes.

As for the issue of the children having genetic diseases and what not. Guess what? They most likely have no chance of every experiencing this world at all if they were aborted.

Even if they will eventually pass away, if you can't be prepared to love your child without regard, DONT HAVE CHILDREN.

What is this sense of shame with people and mental illnesses or physical disabilities. Not every baby can be a rolly polly fat shit making machine okay? People judge, they feel shame if there is anything wrong with their kids, understandable but selfish.

We live everyday hoping for a better tomorrow because that is all we can do and all that we want.

Isn't living having hope and hoping to see another day tomorrow?

Also on a side note, Am I allowed to post up a chart showing graphic images of aborted fetuses ranging from 2 weeks to 8 months? It'll definitely change a lot of minds very quickly.

Sometimes, it takes one to see before one can realize what is wrong.

Sci_Girl

01-07-2012, 10:30 PM

Guess what? They most likely have no chance of every experiencing this world at all if they were aborted.

No, that is not what I asked and I did not say the parents would not love their child. I asked what is your stance on having a child that you would fully be aware of would experience pain and suffering because that parent chose to have the child. That parent chose to have a child knowing they are causing the baby more pain by brought into the world. What is your stance on that, not "they would never experience the world if they were aborted"...I am asking under the presumption that a parent loves their child and still wants to have the baby but they would be under the full knowledge that their child would live a short painful life due to their decision. They will not be able to experience the world outside of drugs, slowly wasting of their muscles, and having close to no brain functioning due to a shriveled brain. That is not a life. That child will never be able to say "I love you mom", never be able to hug their parents, never play catch with Dad...nothing, because their genetic condition makes it so they can hardly take a breath in the morning.

Also on a side note, Am I allowed to post up a chart showing graphic images of aborted fetuses ranging from 2 weeks to 8 months? It'll definitely change a lot of minds very quickly.

I have no problem with it if the Mods say yes, providing the images are from a reputable medical source (they use them for teaching purposes) and not biased by extremist organizations that will edit images to make them seem worse. On a side note, that "2 week" fetus will be a zygote and less than a millimeter in length, it will be a mass of cells still attached to the uterine lining with zero differentiation and almost impossible to even find. The cells for the yolk sac, amnion, and chorion are still in development and hence will not be of any use for a debate such as this. Any picture depicting anything but a mass of uniform looking cells at the zygote stage will be a fake image, there is no differentiation, there is no "baby" form to argue.

Mouse

01-08-2012, 12:33 AM

I'm pretty sure something like this will be posted;

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[I won't go offtopic more than this, just couldn't resist]

Chi

01-08-2012, 01:21 AM

I wish you could rep down comments or comments without citation. Or mods should mute stupid posts. Because all the comments you make are assumptions.
Also that site you linked has nothing to do with abortion. Most of the case studies are about war crimes where dictators killed a certain gender due to thread (Male, female, born and unborn)
For example
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Nanjing was invaded by the japanese who not only slaughtered and raped the women and children they tortured, mutilated and murdered all the chinese men. It was not a gendercide it was war crimes. The japanese didn't even treat them as equals.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

How can assume that people will have more unprotected sex if abortion was legalized? People don't all of a sudden think "Wow, now that its legalized we can go have an abortion if anything happens". Abortion isn't for everyone >.>

Whilst gender preference happens and in some extreme cases a child is aborted due to being the wrong sex, I'd say this has decreased due to the progression of womens rights and the role women play in society today. Rights for women, to have choice and freedom and gain and education. You know what happens to some of the girls that are carried to term and then disowned in countries such as india and china? They are either put into an adoption centre or sold as slaves or trafficked as sex slaves. What is worst then?

[QUOTE]Trafficking in children
Main article: Trafficking of children
Trafficking of children is the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring, or receipt of children for the purpose of exploitation.
Trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation of children can take many forms and include forcing a child into prostitution[17][18] or other forms of sexual activity or child pornography. Child exploitation can also include forced labour or services, slavery or practices similar to slavery, servitude, the removal of organs, illicit international adoption, trafficking for early marriage, recruitment as child soldiers, for use in begging or as athletes (such as child camel jockeys or football players), or for recruitment for cults.[19]
It was reported in 2010 that Thailand and Brazil were considered to have the worst child sex trafficking records.[20]
Trafficking in children often involves exploitation of the parents' extreme poverty. Parents may sell children to traffickers in order to pay off debts or gain income, or they may be deceived concerning the prospects of training and a better life for their children. They may sell their children for labor, sex trafficking, or illegal adoptions.
T[B][U]he adoption process, legal and illegal, when abused can sometimes result in cases of trafficking of babies and pregnant women between the West and the developing world.[21] In David M. Smolin

Scan

01-08-2012, 05:45 PM

Choice. It was shown in the past that when the US DID make abortion illegal, crime rates went up dramatically, and the poor, only became even more poor, with children.

Meagan

01-08-2012, 08:01 PM

Flash

01-10-2012, 12:24 AM

But Im a guy :(

If I ever get the chance to get pregnant...Iwill be sure to come here after, k?

lol jk

Anyways, I think it ultimately should be up to the person. I believe in Pro-Life, but 'm not the one in the situation. Personally just mind your own business if it doesnt affect you directly.

my grand philosophy...for the hell of it

There should just be more precautions taken to prevent pregnancy in the first place. Don't put yourself in situations that can have huge risks. Pregnancy is easily avoidable if you don't want it to happen...so if u r a pro choice female who plans on getting a few abortions cuz you think it isnt a big deal..how bout you just use a condom or birth control instead ya?

Matthew

01-11-2012, 03:36 AM

Pro-life. There is no choice to me. No matter the circumstances there is someone in this country that would care for the child. There's millions of people who can't have children but deserve one. 99% of the time its your fault. You take the responsibility or find someone that will

Crayon

01-11-2012, 12:38 PM

Everyone has such strong opinions when they neither experienced pregnancy or abortion. Trust me, you look at both sides totally different when it happens to you. I also don't think posting images of abortions performed 2 weeks to 8 months changes a situation if you're going through it at the time, seeing an image (which I have) and actually seeing my baby on an ultra sound is two different things. You may be going in to an abortion clinic set on getting it done but when you see it moving on screen it's not so easy even given the facts it's "just a fetus". I find these threads so silly. I would like for everyone to post. On this thread after having a pregnancy or an abortion and then tell me how you feel.

^ this. so much.

I think it's sad when people get an abortion as a form of birth control, because they're too stupid to use actual birth control but when it comes down to it, it is your choice.
I personally would never get an abortion myself, because from experience, that just wasn't for me (I have a 1 year old daughter) but I wouldn't contemn someone who did opt to get one...
It's a touchy subject for a lot of people and you REALLY can't say what you'd do or what you wouldn't do unless you've been through it.
Before I got pregnant i was like "omg that gurl got an abortion? wat a stupid slut..omg"
but now it's like, I can understand why someone would do it. It's so stressing and scary and just overall a huge life change. if you're not ready to change your life style or not ready to have a kid or not making enough money, why is abortion selfish? There's always the argument "OMG ADOPTION! PPLZ WANNA HAS UR BABIES" Okay, good for them. You try going through an entire 9 (almost ten months) of carrying around this child, that you bond with even before they're born.. and so many complications can happen during pregnancy.

Still, I wouldn't ever have one..
But being pregnant is so stressing, I understand why people would

Azn

01-11-2012, 05:02 PM

It's quite sad to see that pro-life people have no problem eating eggs for breakfast, knowing full well that those are unhatched chicks. Just like caviar is a bunch of fish eggs.

Anyways, Matthew, if you look at the children that need adoption and children in foster care, you will see that there is more than enough for parents that want to adopt at the moment.

I want to interate that you can be pro-choice but pro-life yourself, meaning if it were your baby, you wouldn't have an abortion but you want to give women the say to choose what they want.

Sci_Girl

01-11-2012, 07:01 PM

It's quite sad to see that pro-life people have no problem eating eggs for breakfast, knowing full well that those are unhatched chicks. Just like caviar is a bunch of fish eggs.

Technically the eggs you buy from your grocery store are unfertilized eggs, the roosters are not kept with hens in production pens because the hen can produce a regular egg every 24-36 hours. Caviar is also unfertilized eggs, they are the eggs in ovaries which have not yet been fertilized many of which can simply be harvested from a live fish (such as the Sturgeon) and set free again to continue making eggs. It is just like when you clean a fish on the beach, those eggs in the female are not sitting in her fertilized...they are just there ready for reproduction and if you press on her stomach while still alive those eggs can be pushed out. There is no killing of "baby animals" because no fertilization has occurred.

Azn

01-11-2012, 09:42 PM

Sci_Girl

You are absolutely correct, I did not think of that. I do like try new food so I did order a Balut in a very authentic Asian restaurant before. ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Anyways, we as Americans do eat baby animals though...
Lamb is usually under a year old, though it's often slaughtered at around 6 to 7 months old. Meat from adults is called mutton and tends to be tougher and stronger in flavor.
Pig is slaughtered anywhere from 4 months old (when it's around 40 pounds) to a year old (when it's up to 200 pounds), but from what I can tell, the most common ages are 6 to 9 months old. Suckling pigs are between 2 to 6 weeks old.
Most beef is usually just under a year old, though grass-fed cattle are usually a few months older because they take longer to grow.
Free-raised veal is around 6 to 7 months old.

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Sci_Girl

01-11-2012, 09:49 PM

I do like try new food so I did order a Balut in a very authentic Asian restaurant before.

lol Balut is a whole other ballgame, the only reason I know what that it is is that I watch a show called Bizarre foods and he has eaten that on numerous occasions. The average American is not going to dine on that egg by any means lol.

Other young animal foods are certainly abundant though (I personally love lamb), not sure how pro-life individuals feel about consuming them because they have already been born unlike say a Balut egg which is still a baby chicken but not born. Vegetarianism falls more so into the young animal category on that particular subject, pro-life maybe if we were eating the embryo stage of that lamb.

Lauren

01-11-2012, 10:08 PM

This is a really difficult question because like a lot of people have said, for one it can be situational, and two, you have to almost be in the situation to see it from their side. Having a baby is one of the most life-changing things that can happen. I'd like to consider myself pro-life because I do believe the baby has individual rights and it is not its fault when someone decides life or death, but I also understand that I've never been in that situation, and I certainly don't think people should tell or try to force someone to keep the baby because of what they believe in. Whatever you believe in is what YOU believe in, and if you judge others for decisions that they have made because they are different than what you would have done, where will that get you? Especially if you end up in that situation and do the same thing they did?

inuse123

01-16-2012, 12:19 AM

I have a friend who has had 2 abortions and had to use plan B once, and at first I sympathized with her because it was an accident, her life would be "ruined", etc, but then a second abortion.. I don't know. I definitely didn't judge her though because I don't know what I would have done. I'm more pro-life because everyone is responsible for their own actions and should deal with the consequences. I'm leaning towards it being illegal because it's like murdering a person and that's illegal. No, people shouldn't be forced into having a child, but no one forced them to get pregnant either. As for plan B.. I think that's ok although also kind of irresponsible

Lauren

01-16-2012, 02:51 AM

Isn't planned B pretty much abortion though? It kills whatever is happening inside of you same as an abortion, just earlier.

But a second abortion? D: You'd think she would have learned from the first... I don't think it should be illegal, I just wish people would stop being the way people are. -___- Nothing against your friend or anything, I just wish people would stop being so careless. How much did the abortions even cost? I have no idea how much they run.

Meagan

01-16-2012, 03:52 AM

I believe the cost of abortions changes depending on how far along you are. Plan b isn't basically an abortion, there is an abortion pill, RU-486, but plan b won't terminate a pregnancy. You have 3 days to take it, if the condom broke, careless with the pill, unprotected sex, rape, condom slipped, etc. You are not pregnant within the 3 days after having sex, implantation hasn't occurred yet. Plan b isn't irresponsible, there are so many reasons to take it, what if the female was just on antibiotics and had sex, not realizing that her birth control could be ineffective?

Lauren

01-16-2012, 04:07 AM

Yeah I suppose that makes sense about the 3 day period dealio, I've just never really thought about it. I don't understand how anyone gets pregnant when the sperm doesn't survive that long though, I mean most women are "fertile" for like a week to ten days correct? And it takes the sperm however long it takes it to swim to the egg, but you don't get "pregnant" until like 10 days after unprotected sex when the sperm can only survive a few days?
Is that confusing? xD For example I mean say a woman has sex on the 5th day of her fertility. It takes the sperm a little bit to swim to the egg but she doesn't get pregnant until like a week later or something, how does the sperm survive this long (this is why I wasn't thinking on the plan B pill) if it hasn't reached the egg to fertilize and create the pregnancy yet and how is the egg still good to go after that much time?

Educate me in basic sex education LOL

Edit: I totally didn't take into account the time that the egg has to be implanted but I don't know how long that takes and I don't feel like googling it because if it's a while then this post is pointless and I don't feel like changing my entire post for this lmao.

Edit #2: Well I googled stuff and it makes me wonder even more how people get pregnant so easily. "The egg can be fertilized for about 24 hours after ovulation." HOW DOES ANYONE GET PREGNANT

Meagan

01-16-2012, 05:06 AM

It is all crazy when you think about it, 20% of women actually get pregnant while ovulating, sperm can live inside you for up to 7 days so you're fertile prior to ovulating if you think about it. But not every woman ovulates every month, which was the case for me. You have 5 days at most where you're most fertile, 2 days prior, the day of, and 2 days after. I think pregnancy is fascinating but I'm partial as I have a child. :)

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 AM ----------

And this, I loved watching these short videos.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

randomer95

01-16-2012, 08:59 AM

Pro choice - not being able to bring up the baby in a good environment but also not being able to bear the knowledge of having a child in the world and it not being yours. Pretty cruel and heartbreaking to think that somewhere there's a child that you had a part in giving life to but weren't able to provide for it. Plus, with a choice, who knows, maybe the woman wants the kid and wouldn't it be better to want the kid rather than feeling like they were forced upon on you?

Sci_Girl

01-16-2012, 09:35 AM

Educate me in basic sex education LOL

In short you can become pregnant at any point in your cycle despite any prevention methods. The reason fertile days are listed or mentioned is because they are the most fertile of the days. There is a much greater chance of becoming pregnant in those few days because the egg is ready to go, the body has hormone levels ready to go, the uterus has made it's environment very useable for conception and so forth. Other days can still allow for pregnancy but it is just not the same ideal hormone levels, the same uterine environment etc. Ask anyone who has gotten pregnant on "off days" when they were not ovulating, or ask anyone who has gotten pregnant while on the pill. As long as sex is occurring the possibility of pregnancy is there, the only thing that prevents pregnancy is abstinence altogether.

Blu

01-17-2012, 04:19 PM

Pro-Choice
It's just a fetus, not a big deal...
Besides they're not even considered human.

Dan

01-17-2012, 06:01 PM

Pro-choice

The first amendment of the Constitution states that we have a freedom of speech. The girl who got knocked up, should be able to say what she wants.

kidchaor

01-17-2012, 06:02 PM

wtf is this even...anyways pro choice sounds cool.

zyocuh

01-29-2012, 07:19 PM

I am a VERY liberal person so Like gay marriage you do what you want with your body and no one should have a say.... BUT that being said if the baby is like formed and what not then no no no

Foxer

01-29-2012, 07:46 PM

My opinions on the matter are largely uneducated and based on my personal feelings. I am not pro-life, but I'm close to it. I don't believe abortions should be used for convenience sake, but I do think there are conditions under which no one should be judged for choosing to abort a child. Such situations include incest and rape. I'm undecided on the matter of disability. On the one hand some children who are little more than vegetables could have been aborted and saved their parents a lot of heartbreak. On the other hand, I have some pretty big disabilities and probably would have been a candidate for abortion had I been born later than I was, and I have lived a great life and done some pretty awesome things.

I don't think it's our place to play God, but that there are some circumstances which make abortion the lesser of two evils. If you are not ready for the consequences that come with sex, then you just simply shouldn't be having it.

Sage

02-02-2012, 08:24 PM

I'm a female and I am pro-life. Completely.
If you're going to spread your legs, deal with the consequences. If you don't want the child, then consider adoption.

Cara

02-03-2012, 02:51 PM

I'm a female and I am pro-life. Completely.
If you're going to spread your legs, deal with the consequences. If you don't want the child, then consider adoption.

What about rape? Do you still think a woman should be forced to give birth to a child she had no saying in having to begin with? I know it isn't the child's fault, but it wouldn't have been the mothers either. Not all babies are born by a woman freely opening her legs to anyone she wants. I know you may not have meant to imply that all women who have abortions are whores, but it came off that way in your post.

bourrache

02-03-2012, 10:37 PM

Anti-life. Eheheh.
No, but I'm pro-choice. It doesn't make sense to me at all to force someone to have a child, especially in cases of rape, incest, teenagers, etc.

nitza

02-04-2012, 12:42 AM

I'm against abortions in general, but i'm pro-choice - i'd never force someone to do something against their will. people should focus their energy into teaching kids not to have sex at 11 years old, educate them about STDs and stuff..

victoriamle

02-04-2012, 12:54 AM

I'm fairly against abortions, except if say a women gets raped then I feel the situation would be acceptable

Chi

02-05-2012, 06:05 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

As you can see this is one of the multiple cases of 'pro-life' protestors being assholes and making someones life a living hell. Being pro-life is NOT productive nor is it the smart choice, nor is it fair. Let the woman decide its none of your business what she does with her body.

300nukez

02-05-2012, 07:34 AM

I am not sure but I think technology can remove the egg at early stages and embed it in another host. There are people hwo can't produce eggs or have sex because they are very sensitive. This could be a great opportunity to save lives but finding a new host might be a problem.

I guess I'm pro life unless they are raped or something.

Illyria

02-09-2012, 11:15 PM

I'm definitely pro-choice. It's so easy to stand in a corner and judge but to be honest, there are so many variables that can happen which may be beyond the individual's control. We don't ever know what someone is going through, so all we can do is to respect or at least, not condemn their actions which they have to live with. At the end of the day, you'd want to have that freedom of choice as well.

Razor

02-09-2012, 11:27 PM

Pro-Choice, definitely, it should be the person's decision whether if she wants the baby aborted or not. It's not murder, it is within your body and if you do not want to carry it, that should be your choice and only yours. Absolutely ridiculous to force someone to keep a baby just because all the self righteous pro-life supporters say so. They do NOT know what that person is going through, and would be an insult to say that they do.

IndigoSunset

02-09-2012, 11:30 PM

Razor

02-09-2012, 11:44 PM

Life begins at birth, specifically when you become two different individuals. A frozen embryo is not an actual person. Either way the fetus can kill the carrier as well through child birth. More than half a million women die each year due to child birth complications. It is a definite risk to the carrier, why should she be forced to have the baby when it is making her risk her life? We kill everything anyway. We kill old people through euthanasia, criminals as punishment, through war, self defense and many other things. Why is it okay to do those things but why does everyone jump to the defense of an unborn fetus and call it murder?

Chi

02-10-2012, 03:11 PM

There;s too much consensus here for my liking :P

Ok so everyone who is pro-choice, presumably you're ok with abortions but wouldn't be ok with killing a newborn child. So when does it become a child proper, who it would be wrong to kill? And how can you draw such a fine distinction between these 2 closely interlinked states?

Yes there is a significant difference.

I said in my OP that abortion should be 100% okay up until 20/21 weeks. Things change from this point onwards because from about 21 weeks something happens. The brain begins to function and pain receptors are active. Things should be taken into consideration after this point onwards. Firstly there are some disabilities that aren't identifiable until this stage. There should be an option to terminate the fetus for those parents who want the chance. Why? Because quality of life is important. If my child had a terrible disability that left them completely able to function on their own from birth I wouldn't want them to live the trapped life. In the natural world if the child was for example an antelope and had some sort of mental of functional disability it would be dead within the first 5 minutes of birth because predators would take advantage of the opportunity and its parents would not be able to fend for it without risking their own life. In today's society not every couple has the financial support to raise a child with a disability especially if the child isn't the first one and thus the option to abort should still be available.

aca

04-06-2012, 01:47 AM

Pro choice, no matter the situation. Abortions due to pregnancies from rape are actually only a small percentage of the abortions performed in the US. There are tons of more reasons to need/want an abortion, including:
-Not having the finances to raise a child, or even not enough to get proper prenatal care
-Pregnancy at certain ages, such as teens or college age students
-Not wanting the child for various reasons, especially if the woman never wants to have children
-Inability to raise a child in general, with no family or friends to help
-Health complications of the woman, including mental health
-If the child will be born with serious birth defects

It's a terrible idea to force a woman to have a child. It'll make her incredibly bitter and depressed or even suicidal. It still applies even if she puts the child up for adoption. Pregnancy isn't an easy thing to go through.

Lilac Tentacles

04-06-2012, 02:51 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This somehow makes a lot of sense...

plsmy1

04-06-2012, 11:52 AM

Strong Language
[Only registered and activated users can see links] PoliciesDiscussing American Politics
Raises interesting points. Not for those who get offended easily.

aca

04-06-2012, 04:19 PM

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This somehow makes a lot of sense...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

kariyuki

04-06-2012, 04:30 PM

Pro-Choice, some people just aren't fit to rasie kids, i think the kids are better off dead then suffering at the hands of such evil people. If a person knows they can't take care of a kid they should be able to do what they think is the right option. I get the POV of pro-life but honestly we can't tell other people what to do.

Lilac Tentacles

04-06-2012, 04:30 PM

Killing broccoli is murder.

For shame!!!

Drake.

04-08-2012, 06:35 PM

Pro-Choice.

We dont sing "happy birthday" on the day we have been "made in"....we sing on the day we are BORN at all....its hypocrisy to say that an embryo is already alive...

And i really think, if someone DOEST want a kid(it can be monetary or personally, doest matter), they are better dead than in their hands.

saltymushi

04-08-2012, 10:12 PM

Pro-Choice. It's the woman's life vs the baby's life, after all. If she's taking a step such as abortion, she would have thought everything through

sarahbella

04-21-2012, 05:23 AM

I'm pro-choice. I've had one, it shouldn't of happened, and it was my own selfish fault. However, I'm not afraid of going to "hell" or anything like that for the choice I made, and my decision was the right one no matter what anyone else thinks. I don't really have to explain anything to anyone here either, but I will slightly. I was 17 years old, yet to finish high school, the father would not have cared to be involved, and I was on medications that could prove very harmful to my unborn especially since I would have had to stop taking them a year in advance before conception.

That's not to say I don't regret my actions, because I do. Unfortunately what's done is done and I have to move forward. I do want kids someday, and I will have them. I am currently on birth control and I'm more mature at 22 than I was at 17. I'm also married now and in a situation where I could have kids right now and be fine. However, I don't want kids at the moment and I'm not too much into repeating past mistakes.

I'd also like to mention that rape is not a choice. A rape victim has every right to not want that child and not have to worry about going to jail because of it. (Not that you do now, just saying). I'm sorry, but especially in cases like that, it is not the woman's fault. She did not asked to be raped and become pregnant as a result. Every woman has the right to choose, and I feel even when your not choosing to condone or personally have an abortion, that is still a choice.

To each his (or her) own, really. It shouldn't be up to the government or a group of people what one person can or is supposed to do. It should be up to the individual that it is happening to.

caonima

04-22-2012, 10:28 AM

I will go with my biology teacher. I am pro choice. It is not considered a human until it grows visible human traits

Sneakz

04-26-2012, 04:48 PM

Personally, I believe it completely depends on the circumstances. It is not a black and white issue, there are a lot of gray areas. I think that if a woman is raped, if giving birth would be harmful to the mother, or if it is absolutely necessary to abort the fetus due to medical reasons, I am completely for it. However, letting anyone and everyone make this decision is something I feel is wrong. I do not feel the main problem with pro-choice is whether or not the fetus is considered a "life" or not, but it has become a fallback option to just get rid of a "problem." If someone engages in consensual sex, they should do so while fully aware of the consequences. If one is not able to deal with the potential consequences of sex, they should not be having it - this especially applies to younger teenagers who are not even emotionally ready to handle sex OR pregnancy. I don't feel abortion should be offered to just anyone. There are plenty of infertile couples who would love to adopt.

Becka

04-28-2012, 11:59 AM

I think if the baby isn't well in pregnancy, the person should abort it. But if it seems perfectly healthy, they should wait the pregnancy off until birth and adopt out. I don't see why they'd abort if the baby is healthy. If the baby has something wrong with it such as a medical condition that'd cost lots of money, or if the baby has something terribly wrong like. Being in pain all the time, I'd say abort.

I'm highly against abortion though.

Kera

04-29-2012, 04:48 PM

Pro-Choice.
If the women gets raped and wants to suppress the memory but ends up pregnant, I don't think its fair that she would be stuck having the baby.
One of my cousins choice a bad path in life, and recently had to have 2 abortions. It's not something that she wants to have to go through again, but she was happy that she was able to make that choice and choose to end them so she can move on and try to fix her mistakes.

lastdeadriser

04-29-2012, 06:08 PM

No that is just wrong only god has the right to end someone's life. I am not even a relgous person. It's still just not right at alll.

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

Pro-Choice.
If the women gets raped and wants to suppress the memory but ends up pregnant, I don't think its fair that she would be stuck having the baby.
One of my cousins choice a bad path in life, and recently had to have 2 abortions. It's not something that she wants to have to go through again, but she was happy that she was able to make that choice and choose to end them so she can move on and try to fix her mistakes.

well I might think its okay in that type of situation

Kera

04-30-2012, 02:45 PM

No that is just wrong only god has the right to end someone's life. I am not even a relgous person. It's still just not right at alll.

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

well I might think its okay in that type of situation

What about if the mom (or baby) become ill and the only way to save the mom is to abort it?
Thats why I'm pro-choice. You can't force someone NOT to try and save their lives... Just saying.

Lilac Tentacles

04-30-2012, 04:09 PM

The army has a saying: It's only an emergency if it affects life, limb, or eyesight.

I'm pro-adoption. I have friends who can't have children. Unless that baby is going to kill you on it's way into the world, I don't think you have the right to decide to kill it.

People forget that babies are people, too. If we had the ability to see into the future, how would you feel if you aborted the child who would have one day cured cancer? the kid who became the president that brought world peace?

Who are we, as mere stupid nobodies, to decide who we can kill simply because we feel inconvenienced by them being body roommates for 9 months.

I lived with a huge fucking doucher in college for a whole year. I think i could suck it up with a quiet, no mess roommate for 9 months and then give him to a couple who would give them all the love and opportunity to have an amazing life. And all i'm out is 9 months of drinking.

The human race as a whole disgusts me. My little brother was a bigger inconvenience to me than carrying a baby to term would be and i didn't shoot my brother. Save a life, make a childless couple happy, and move on with your life knowing you didn't murder a child.
Make all the excuses you want, it's wrong. You're just selfish.

Ryan~

04-30-2012, 04:14 PM

What about if the mom (or baby) become ill and the only way to save the mom is to abort it?
Thats why I'm pro-choice. You can't force someone NOT to try and save their lives... Just saying.

They can always Cesarian Section the baby and put it on an incubator.

My solution:

You don't want a baby....don't have sex, or use protection.
You don't want to keep a baby, give it up for adoption.

There is no reason to kill a future-baby. Someone I know is pregnant and I saw the baby move the other day...I thought to myself "There is a tiny little person in there". How can people kill babies?

If you really want to be against abortion, watch a video of an abortion. You'll change your mind.

Pro-Choice.
If the women gets raped and wants to suppress the memory but ends up pregnant, I don't think its fair that she would be stuck having the baby.
One of my cousins choice a bad path in life, and recently had to have 2 abortions. It's not something that she wants to have to go through again, but she was happy that she was able to make that choice and choose to end them so she can move on and try to fix her mistakes.

A baby in no way is considered a "mistake". Would you consider yourself a mistake? Your parents? Your grandparents? Albert Einstein?

People really need to learn to see the good in every situation :( Sure you got raped, but now you have a baby who might grow up to be something one day. Or maybe one day you'll need a kidney or something and BOOM. The child can help. People don't think things through -.- Adoption is always an option. I would not be happy knowing I had a hand in killing a future-person.

I think if the baby isn't well in pregnancy, the person should abort it. But if it seems perfectly healthy, they should wait the pregnancy off until birth and adopt out. I don't see why they'd abort if the baby is healthy. If the baby has something wrong with it such as a medical condition that'd cost lots of money, or if the baby has something terribly wrong like. Being in pain all the time, I'd say abort.

I'm highly against abortion though.

So....if someone develops cancer at the age of 13, we should just kill them? So that we save money? That's a little sick, don't you think?
you sounded an awful lot like Hitler there for a moment.

People who have mental illnesses are some of the nicest, sweetest people I have ever met.

Meagan

04-30-2012, 04:57 PM

Pregnancy isn't that easy as some of you think, so letting a baby cook in you for 10 months isn't always an option. I had a very difficult pregnancy and I was scared of the outcome of myself dying or losing the baby. I was told I should have aborted, one of the nurses said I shouldn't have had children because of my kidney disease and asked why my mom didn't consent for me to have my tubes tied when I was having my c section. (She has power of attorney in case something happened to me during labor) Anyways, my nephrologist said as a doctor I shouldn't have children but as a friend it depends on the quality of life I want, having children is a huge risk for both me and baby so I probably will only have two children. There are many medications that will cause severe deformities on a child that may only live a few hours, days, or whatever so aborting because of that wouldn't be selfish in my opinion, I would not want a baby to have to suffer like that. If you have a moment check out this blog, I personally wouldn't have an abortion to save myself but something genetically wrong with the baby, trisomy 13 or 18, etc I feel it's not right to the child to live like that. This blog is heart breaking and I couldn't imagine what pain the baby feel constantly and knowing she probably won't live beyond 2.. [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Lilac Tentacles

04-30-2012, 07:10 PM

We just said, if it's life, limb, or eyesight (ie- emergency to life) then it should be ok to terminate a pregnancy.

It's selfish when a child is considered inconvenient to the mother.

Ryan~

04-30-2012, 07:22 PM

In her defense, I did kind of implied that it should never be an option. But, I see where she is right.

Lilac Tentacles

04-30-2012, 07:37 PM

Bammeh

Quit giving me reasons to rage! it makes me hot.

Ryan~

04-30-2012, 10:41 PM

Bammeh

Quit giving me reasons to rage! it makes me hot.

y u so sexi boo? (;

inb4 ew.

Becka

05-01-2012, 01:38 AM

So....if someone develops cancer at the age of 13, we should just kill them? So that we save money? That's a little sick, don't you think?
you sounded an awful lot like Hitler there for a moment.

People who have mental illnesses are some of the nicest, sweetest people I have ever met.

I have lots of mentally ill friends, but I mean people that are going to be born with no heart, no lungs, no intestines, no kidneys etc etc whatever without that they won't survive out of the womb, I think they should abort then, that type of mental illness. Not something like downs syndrome, Aspergers and epilepsy, I've got loads of friends like that and they have a big place in my heart. :x

Ryan~

05-01-2012, 02:53 AM

Being born without organs rarely happens, also it is not a mental illness. It is a birth defect.

Slasher

05-05-2012, 07:05 PM

if I could know if my child was very handicapped with a scan, I would prefer not to keep him/her. I would like to have kid for myself, not for the other. I would be raising my child. For his/her life and mine, I would say pro choice. If my newborn kid happened to have an important handicap, I would deal with it.

For all the accidents, the rapes, the young teens, I say pro choice. Condom is keeping babies from being made too. Some girls are aborting many times because they are not careful, but a lot won't ever abort again.

Trinket

05-05-2012, 07:29 PM

Oo-er, hmm. It really depends on the circumstances.

I absolutely adore babies, and if I became pregnant now, I would definitely keep it -- unless I was raped or something. Even though it wouldn't be the baby's fault, I'm not mentally strong enough to deal with that sort of thing.

I do think women should have the choice available though -- for example, what if the baby had some awful condition that would leave it to live a horrible and sad life? I'd never put my baby through that. I just hate it when women have more abortions than they change their knickers. You know, contraception is there for a reason. Having an abortion due to an accident pisses me off, but still, the choice is theirs.

I do hate the concept of abortion -- even if in the very beginning it's just a cluster of cells, that cluster of cells will grow up to become a human being. The guilt would haunt me :x

Cody.

05-05-2012, 08:20 PM

imo it totally depends on the circumstances.

If you got raped or something drastic like that, then fine.
An abortion seems only logical.

But anything other than that, I feel like abortions shouldnt be allowed.
Only because it's taking a life. The living organism that you are housing would die, and that would be that.

So I guess that makes me pro-life.

bc.m

05-06-2012, 01:17 PM

Pro-choice but with certain limitations. For example, if the woman got pregnant due to non-consensual sex, I do believe she should have the right to have an abortion. (Though, I have read circumstances wherein babies who were born due to rape ARE thankful for their mothers... but I don't think it would matter because in this case, it is the pregnant woman's choice. Sorry.)

Pestix

05-09-2012, 11:23 PM

I am pro choice. It's a womans RIGHT to choose. I wouldn't necessarily get an abortion myself but it's nice to know that option is there.

---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 PM ----------

I just watched this and it melted my heart <3

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Lauren

05-10-2012, 02:36 AM

I only read from page 11, no time haha.

No that is just wrong only god has the right to end someone's life.

If the women gets raped and wants to suppress the memory but ends up pregnant, I don't think its fair that she would be stuck having the baby.

well I might think its okay in that type of situation

I honestly feel like you completely contradicted yourself. If your reason for being against abortion is because you think it's ending a life and you're not considering the potential mother AT ALL or her reasons, I don't understand why you consider the mother in this particular situation. I would think in your eyes it would still be ending a life.

This is what I don't understand about pro-lifers. They say it ends a life so they're against abortion, but throw some stuff like that in there and suddenly, outside situations matter, and the "life" suddenly becomes less than what a life would be with consensual sex so aborting it is OK. If you say, well, in this case the mother wouldn't have to deal with it emotionally because of what happened, again, you're contradicting yourself, because your argument was for the "life" of the fetus, I don't see the difference if she's raped or not.
There are plenty of other situations women can be in where they would want/need to abort just as badly as if they were raped.

People forget that babies are people, too. If we had the ability to see into the future, how would you feel if you aborted the child who would have one day cured cancer? the kid who became the president that brought world peace?

A baby is a person. A fetus is not.
What makes us "people" or human? It's what separates us from animals -- our ability to think differently, our intelligence, whatever you want to define a person as. A fetus doesn't have actual brain activity until pretty late into the pregnancy. I don't consider it "human" until like 20 weeks-ish, obviously that's completely up to debate but I think the cut off for most abortion places is like... 15 weeks?

Also I HATE the "what if they cured cancer" argument. What if they turned into the next Hitler? There's just as much of a chance.

Would you consider yourself a mistake?

Lol, actually yes, I was a mistake. I don't really care. If my parents had chosen to abort me, I wouldn't know, nor would have I have felt anything (to combat people asking the question "how would you feel if you were aborted? ... I wouldn't feel anything).

Obviously I'm pro-choice, haha.
The main reason I am is because I'm pretty much pro-choice with everything. I think everyone should be able to make their own decisions and I don't know people's life situations, and I don't pretend to. Nothing is black and white. Nothing. I don't judge others for decisions they make. I also don't even consider a fetus a person as I have stated. It has NO attributes that make it what defines one until later in the pregnancy, when abortions are no longer available.

Also, I wish people would stop it with the "it would have been a baby" talk. If a 10 year old dies in a car accident, do you say "an adult died" because it had the potential to be an adult? No, that would be silly. You say a 10 year old died. Just like in an abortion, a fetus "dies", not a baby. If you want to keep saying what something has the potential to be, why stop at a baby, why not say an adult, an elder, and then.. Oh, a dead person.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Extreme pro-lifers piss me off because they refuse to understand everyone has their own situations and circumstances. I've never had an abortion and I'm on birth control and as extra protection my boyfriend always pulls out, but if I was to get pregnant right now, I would get one. I have no shame, I wouldn't regret it either.
Also do you pro-lifers also support helping women out financially to take care of the child so their lives aren't hell (in some situations), or are you satisfied as soon as its born?

Ophelia

05-12-2012, 03:19 PM

Both, in different situations;
Rape/ Health risks to mother and or baby= Pro choice
Laziness/carelessness/changed your mind= Pro life

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------

Also, I think it's notable to mention stem cell research in here. A bundle of cells is completely different than a several month old fetus.

Embryonic stem (ES) cell lines are cultures of cells derived from the epiblast tissue of the inner cell mass (ICM) of a blastocyst or earlier morula stage embryos.[9] A blastocyst is an early stage embryo—approximately four to five days old in humans and consisting of 50–150 cells.

It's completely ridiculous that it is even debated. You kill more cells when you walk across the room for God's sake.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Watch this. Now, could you seriously look him in the eye and tell him those cells are worth more than him?

sanpablo

06-02-2012, 06:15 AM

They can always Cesarian Section the baby and put it on an incubator.

It's really not as easy as 'cutting it out and putting it on an incubator'

foxe

06-02-2012, 06:21 AM

Chi

06-02-2012, 06:59 AM

I've always believed that abortion was acceptable if you were bringing the baby into unideal circumstances (teen pregnancy, etc.) and it would be unhappy AND if the fetus still isn't big enough to be taken out of the stomach. I don't know much about the procedures or anything, so excuse me if this is an ignorant statement, but there is something not right about opening up a woman's stomach and taking out a formed fetus, y'know?

It depends on the stage of the pregnancy.

If its <12 weeks it is aborted through a suction technique which basically removes the fetus, placenta and some areas of the uterus (the build up that usually is discharged during a woman's period). Takes 15 - 20 minutes.

If its mid-trimester its the same but hormones are added to widen the cervix which takes 1-2 days.

If its third trimester due to the death of the fetus labor is either induced by drugs or a c-section occurs. 3rd trimester abortions are rare (and knowing some countries, illegal ;/ ), I don't really know how often they happen. Don't assume that a woman getting an abortion at this stage is being uh....I'm not sure what word to use...careless? Extreme cases are where this type of abortion is needed.

Also~! Not directed at you specifically Taye just some previous comments in the threads. Those 'abortion' videos you see are not abortions. There is generally no blood, the fetus is never presented, no needles are used for the removal (anesthetic maybe) and the if its conducted before 20 weeks (which a large % are) there is no pain, because the brain is not functioning.

foxe

06-02-2012, 09:33 AM

It depends on the stage of the pregnancy.

If its <12 weeks it is aborted through a suction technique which basically removes the fetus, placenta and some areas of the uterus (the build up that usually is discharged during a woman's period). Takes 15 - 20 minutes.

If its mid-trimester its the same but hormones are added to widen the cervix which takes 1-2 days.

If its third trimester due to the death of the fetus labor is either induced by drugs or a c-section occurs. 3rd trimester abortions are rare (and knowing some countries, illegal ;/ ), I don't really know how often they happen. Don't assume that a woman getting an abortion at this stage is being uh....I'm not sure what word to use...careless? Extreme cases are where this type of abortion is needed.

Also~! Not directed at you specifically Taye just some previous comments in the threads. Those 'abortion' videos you see are not abortions. There is generally no blood, the fetus is never presented, no needles are used for the removal (anesthetic maybe) and the if its conducted before 20 weeks (which a large % are) there is no pain, because the brain is not functioning.

^ Thank you for that. I was actually really curious to know how it worked (:

Ryan~

06-03-2012, 07:07 PM

[QUOTE=sanpablo;154590]It's really not as easy as 'cutting it out and putting it on an incubator'

sanpablo

06-04-2012, 04:11 PM

bambi

06-04-2012, 04:14 PM

@ Ryan~

I was under the impression this was a debate zone - where debate is openly encouraged among particpants. I apologise if you took offense to my approach, but I feel strongly about this issue and your post happened to be the one I responded to. I meant no ill feelings against you, honestly.

I wasn't aware that being a newbie somehow rendered my opinions redundant but I will keep that in mind for the future.

Excactly, how does being a newbie make you a worse person?

Stubbie

06-04-2012, 04:27 PM

Ryan~

06-04-2012, 05:13 PM

@ Ryan~

I was under the impression this was a debate zone - where debate is openly encouraged among particpants. I apologise if you took offense to my approach, but I feel strongly about this issue and your post happened to be the one I responded to. I meant no ill feelings against you, honestly.

I wasn't aware that being a newbie somehow rendered my opinions redundant but I will keep that in mind for the future.

Sorry I flipped on you :( I just took offense a little. No hard feelings from me. But I'm not much of a debater so I was surprised when I was singled out :p

And being a newbie has nothing to do with it, I was just angry. Sorry :(

sanpablo

06-05-2012, 06:07 AM

Sorry I flipped on you :( I just took offense a little. No hard feelings from me. But I'm not much of a debater so I was surprised when I was singled out :p

And being a newbie has nothing to do with it, I was just angry. Sorry :(

It's okay. I am sorry if I was too sarcastic, I can be kind of belligerent at times.

Kind of off topic but one of your guides taught me how to use proxies (like over a year ago) haha.

Nath

06-06-2012, 09:38 AM

Pro-choice.

People should have the choice to chose what to do. I don't think it's right to sleep around and then get an abortion, but if you've taken precautions and been extremely unfortunate then it can often in my eyes be the right choice.

E.G. if you're in a relationship, using protection or contraceptives such as pills, injections, implants etc. and still manage to fall pregnant - if you're not ready to raise a child and give it the life it should have, as long as you're early enough I have no problem with it.

I'm an atheist so I guess my views aren't tainted by religion which is often a major player in this debate.

Reload

06-06-2012, 02:24 PM

A child deserves a healthy environment to grow in and if the mother was 'forced' to keep that baby that enviroment will not provided. I believe it's better for both the parents and the child. Pro-choice.

I completely agree with this, I don't believe people should be forced to have an unwanted baby.

eveningstar

06-07-2012, 02:00 PM

Vixen

06-07-2012, 05:56 PM

I'm pro-choice, though I can see both sides. I'm also in favor of abortion clinics because of what women might do if they didn't have access to them. I also agree that a woman should be in control of her body and shouldn't be forced to keep a baby just as a woman shouldn't be forced to have an abortion.

I totally agree with this. The only thing I am against is late term abortions for elective reasons only. I am for late term if it's for medical reasons at any stage though. But then some people say at what stage is the cut off for elective? 16 weeks? later? Most elective abortions happen in the earlier stages from what I read.

chez_the_one

06-08-2012, 09:25 PM

Pro Choice. If the parents are unprepared to support a child financially or mentally it'll impact on the childs quality of life. Why wouldnt someone on birth control be able to have an abortion is she's been actively trying to prevent said baby?

Not to mention the process of having an abortion being severely mentally and physically challenging to the mother. There are consequences for later fertility that the mother will have to deal with, which should be enough.

jenlanes

06-28-2012, 04:34 AM

I am Pro-life because I don't believe it's right to throw away a human life simply because you weren't ready for a child. You were the one who spread your legs and (in most cases) didn't use proper protection, therefore it was your fault and you should deal with the consequences. Obviously there are exceptions that I don't feel the need to list because they've been brought up many times already.

If you're so adamant on not having a child, why not just give it up for adoption after it's born? There are so many people looking to adopt babies.

The way I see it (again, in most cases, not all), it's just plain selfish to have an abortion.

---------- Post added at 03:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 AM ----------

I should also mention that I am an atheist, and my views on this have no relation to religion.

pinkie

07-24-2012, 11:36 AM

^I am afraid for what this might mean for mankind.
I'm pro-choice.

DarkByte

07-24-2012, 11:42 AM

Anti abortion in most cases. If you are not grown up enough to care for a baby , perhaps you should consider if you are grown up enough to have unprotected sex. It should not be a case of sucking it out and moving on.use

My stance changes when it comes to rape/incest ect cases though.

It's tricky though there are people who genuinely get pregnant even while on contraception but then theres the women who just have a abortion and sleep around constantly (skets). The sway my view on this I just wanna see them learn a hard lesson lol.

fairydust201

07-25-2012, 10:42 PM

I'm pro-choice - I Don't be leave in abortion's ;; Killing my baby just isn't right ...
she/he deserve to have a life if it was born into the world , if you can't take
care of it place it up for Forster home or give them to some one who wants a baby & can take care of it ...
Forster home's is the safest way to me ...

Syphon

07-25-2012, 11:20 PM

you're pro choice
but you said you don't believe in abortions

what

you obviously mean pro life but don't know which one is which

Anyway I'm pro choice obviously. I'm not gonna ruin my life by having a kid too early. And if the woman having my child isn't ready to have a kid, and not sure she will be able to take care of the kid, why should she have it and possibly give the kid a shitty ass life and ruin his/her future? Not fair to either party, really.

PrincessParker

10-12-2012, 11:19 AM

Pro-Choice.

I used to be against abortion, until I had a pregnancy scare. Granted, I wasn't pregnant, but it really put things into perspective for me.

If a woman gets pregnant, no matter how it happened, that's a life changing situation. I'm going to put this in terms of my life, in general, just because it's the easiest way to describe it.

If I were to get pregnant, right now, my life would be negatively affected, and not even for selfish reasons. I wouldn't care that I would no longer be able to travel the world until late in my life, that I would never be able to join the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, that I would no longer have a social life of any kind until the baby was older... None of those reasons even phase me...

I work, to literally pay my bills, the cost of living, and my car. I have about $20 extra to my name every month. I would have to move out of my place, find a smaller one, get a better job, put school on hold, and push back my career even further. I'm 20 years old, and will be 21 when I go to school. I will be 25 before I can have a job in the field of my choice, and then 30 before I can have my career on track. (I want to be a Lawyer - 8 years of school). My parents would support me, but there are many people who don't have that support. Even with that help, I couldn't do it on my own. My boyfriend would be there for me, but the stress of it all would put a huge damper on our relationship. I know we're strong enough to over-come it, but being that stressed and pregnant isn't a good way to have a healthy baby. The cost of one child per year, below the age of 5 is crazy. Diapers alone are a goldmine. (I don't have time right now to actually go and get actual figures, but everyone knows that it's a well known fact; Babies aren't cheap.)

I'm in a pretty okay spot to have a baby, compared to most. Yes, if it were to happen, I could manage, but I would basically be throwing my whole life away, which in turn, gives the unborn baby half the quality of life that a baby needs. No, materialistic items shouldn't matter, as long as they're in a loving home, but can't really pay the bills with love. As much as I would love to be a mother, and bring a child into this world, I want to make sure I'm more than ready. There are so many children in jail, on the streets, selling crack, etc. due to being raised in broken homes. (Some aren't, and have just made dumb choices, I know). I would rather get an abortion of a baby who has not experience anything, nor is fully developed to even know what's going on, than bring it into this world to set it up for disaster.

I would be pro-life, if foster homes/adoption agencies/humanity were run a little more smoothly. I don't want to give up my child that I know even if I couldn't afford it, I could love the shit out of it, for him/her to go to an abusive home, where they're not loved. There are a lot of sick people in the world, and just because they don't have a criminal record, doesn't make them a good person; just makes them smart about it.

winston_tiu

10-17-2012, 09:50 PM

Since i'm in a country where poverty is rampant, I would say pro choice. I feel so much pity for the poor, yet hated their choices of having alot of children. To the point that they blame the government for everything, some people are just not fit to be parents... But i'm rich so I would also say pro life. LoL

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------

Pro-Choice.

I used to be against abortion, until I had a pregnancy scare. Granted, I wasn't pregnant, but it really put things into perspective for me.

If a woman gets pregnant, no matter how it happened, that's a life changing situation. I'm going to put this in terms of my life, in general, just because it's the easiest way to describe it.

If I were to get pregnant, right now, my life would be negatively affected, and not even for selfish reasons. I wouldn't care that I would no longer be able to travel the world until late in my life, that I would never be able to join the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, that I would no longer have a social life of any kind until the baby was older... None of those reasons even phase me...

I work, to literally pay my bills, the cost of living, and my car. I have about $20 extra to my name every month. I would have to move out of my place, find a smaller one, get a better job, put school on hold, and push back my career even further. I'm 20 years old, and will be 21 when I go to school. I will be 25 before I can have a job in the field of my choice, and then 30 before I can have my career on track. (I want to be a Lawyer - 8 years of school). My parents would support me, but there are many people who don't have that support. Even with that help, I couldn't do it on my own. My boyfriend would be there for me, but the stress of it all would put a huge damper on our relationship. I know we're strong enough to over-come it, but being that stressed and pregnant isn't a good way to have a healthy baby. The cost of one child per year, below the age of 5 is crazy. Diapers alone are a goldmine. (I don't have time right now to actually go and get actual figures, but everyone knows that it's a well known fact; Babies aren't cheap.)

I'm in a pretty okay spot to have a baby, compared to most. Yes, if it were to happen, I could manage, but I would basically be throwing my whole life away, which in turn, gives the unborn baby half the quality of life that a baby needs. No, materialistic items shouldn't matter, as long as they're in a loving home, but can't really pay the bills with love. As much as I would love to be a mother, and bring a child into this world, I want to make sure I'm more than ready. There are so many children in jail, on the streets, selling crack, etc. due to being raised in broken homes. (Some aren't, and have just made dumb choices, I know). I would rather get an abortion of a baby who has not experience anything, nor is fully developed to even know what's going on, than bring it into this world to set it up for disaster.

I would be pro-life, if foster homes/adoption agencies/humanity were run a little more smoothly. I don't want to give up my child that I know even if I couldn't afford it, I could love the shit out of it, for him/her to go to an abusive home, where they're not loved. There are a lot of sick people in the world, and just because they don't have a criminal record, doesn't make them a good person; just makes them smart about it.

Imagine one whole family of 7-12 person living off 1 dollar a day life. Your life is much better off than the poor people, so pitiful...

PrincessParker

10-18-2012, 12:54 AM

Imagine one whole family of 7-12 person living off 1 dollar a day life. Your life is much better off than the poor people, so pitiful...

Yes, but in most countries that have that, they have very strict laws/rules against abortion. I don't think they would bring more mouths into the world, if they knew they couldn't feed everyone. Yes, people can make silly mistakes, but that is basically saying that poor people like that are cruel, and in my opinion, quite morbid.

In third world countries, there generally isn't a safe, or clean place to have an abortion, if there is one at all. I would hardly say a neighbour with a coat hanger who charges far too much in hopes to make a profit, really counts.

On top of that, most people in situations like you mentioned, are in countries where religion is a huge part of their lives. As you had mentioned before with regards to my post on suicide; you love your God, and have faith he loves you. If someone is "blessed" with a child, if they are a God fearing person, they will refuse an abortion even if it is offered to them, and even if it may be the logical choice. Abortion is arguably against the Bible, therefore, people who believe in the Bible that wholeheartedly, would never even consider killing their unborn child. Same goes with any and all other religions out there. If faith and belief is all someone has, they're going to commit to that 100% and try and live their life to please their God, and that their God would never give them more than they could handle.

Yes, when you show my life compared to someone making $1 a day, then yes, my life is fantasic. But, if either me or the less fortunate person got pregnant, it wouldn't be a smart choice to keep the baby... Bringing me back to Pro-Choice. If that person so chooses to make their life 50x's more difficult, then that is their own morals and beliefs, not mine. Just because they may keep the baby if they were in my shoes, I should be able to do what I feel is best.

Celestial

10-18-2012, 03:17 AM

I'm pro-choice no one knows what the future would hold, my life has had more .... than I'd like to think about, if my parents had've aborted I wouldn't have to put up with....

Anyway, while it's still very early it's not so bad.
We kill full grown cows and other animals all the time, the fact that it is our own species is a bit difficult to cope with, but if it does not yet have a thinking mind I wouldn't consider it very alive either.

Then again maybe I've just been desensitized by seeing too many corpses.

For more reasons on why you may want to reconsider that abortion, please refer to this educational video. (Some may be offended - apparently?)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

jwh830

10-18-2012, 10:30 AM

Pro-choice

Kenji

10-18-2012, 08:31 PM

Pro - Choice!

William

10-20-2012, 07:55 PM

I'm pro-life all the way. Caring for a baby is hard, and maybe some adoption agencies don't run smoothly. But there are many that do. Yes it is hard financially, physically, and mentally. And that is why, we need to help those who are in crisis pregnancies. In cases of rape, the community has to aid the woman to help care for her baby, as obviously, many of these victims cannot take care of a child all by themselves. Sometimes, the community does not offer to help, but that doesn't mean you should just stop there. In terms of the difficulty of the pregnancy term, we need to help the victim get through it. It is very tough, especially if one was still in school. People are always willing to help.

For the argument about the child not living a good life, we cannot say that we don't want the child to live a life that they don't deserve. We can't decide that. Only the child can. Why do we have so much support in suicide prevention? Because no matter what, a person is always a person. They should not die, just because they have a hard life. After all, who knows, maybe that child will be the happiest kid in the world, because he takes value in not having many material possessions. As they say, money is not everything, and happiness comes from the heart.
I know many kids who hardly have anything. I'm talking families with 11 kids, who can't afford to privilege their children. But I've never seen them sad in there life.

And for the argument about a woman's choice/right, let's take the example of a kidney. If someone were to die without a kidney, you do not have the obligation to give them one of your kidneys because your kidney was designed for you. Yes, you CAN still live with one kidney, BUT there are complications in doing so, and thus, we can say, that you have the right over your own kidney. Now for the uterus, if you took the uterus out, one wouldn't be affected at all. Why? Because the uterus wasn't designed for you. It was designed for someone else: the baby.

Finally, if one does not think a baby is a human until after it has left the womb, you will gladly realize the argument comes from science. A baby isn't a bunch of cells, it is a bunch of HUMAN cells. Human cells develop into a human, because it was essentially a human to begin with. No other thing, can develop into a human because it is not a human. Ive heard many arguments about an acorn and an acorn tree, but it is faulty. An acorn and an acorn tree are essentially the same. No other seed will develop into an acorn tree, only the acorn. Also, if there's any ambiguity, let's take this example. Say you were on a boat with a polarized camera and you saw the lochness monster. You immediately snap a picture, and it comes out black because it takes a bit of time to develop. You then go to your friend and tell them that you have a picture of the lochness monster. They see black, laugh at you, rip it up, and throw it overboard. The picture of the lochness monster was always there, it just hadn't developed yet.

Brittanee

10-20-2012, 09:36 PM

Pro-Choice.

Also, I don't believe men have the right to vote or even debate about women's rights.
They don't have to go through any of it, so they should have no say.

William

10-20-2012, 10:16 PM

Thats like saying non-jews have no right to debate about the holocaust, or non-North Koreans have no right to debate about the North Korean leader, our non-men have no right to debate about men's rights. That logic contradicts the purpose of debate. Doesn't it make sense that we all have the right to argue for what we think is right?

Brittanee

10-21-2012, 01:55 PM

Men aren't oppressed, first of all.
Secondly, men should not get to vote on what a woman does with her own body.
They don't own woman.
It shouldn't even be an issue.

Just like gay rights, people shouldn't have the right to vote on what gay people are doing with their lives.

It's not affecting your life. It isn't hurting you.

Chi

10-21-2012, 04:22 PM

I'm pro-life all the way. Caring for a baby is hard, and maybe some adoption agencies don't run smoothly. But there are many that do. Yes it is hard financially, physically, and mentally. And that is why, we need to help those who are in crisis pregnancies. In cases of rape, the community has to aid the woman to help care for her baby, as obviously, many of these victims cannot take care of a child all by themselves. Sometimes, the community does not offer to help, but that doesn't mean you should just stop there. In terms of the difficulty of the pregnancy term, we need to help the victim get through it. It is very tough, especially if one was still in school. People are always willing to help.

You want a rape victim do keep the fking child of a possible psychopath? Not only do you know know the medical history of the father in most cases if there is truly something wrong with him in most cases there will be a genetic factor to it. So now you have a mother who hates the baby who hates here life because she isn't allowed to get an abortion and so instead she commits suicide and kills them both. OR she waits and gives birth, hates herself or the child, potentially disowns the child causing the child extreme environmental and psychological harm or kills herself anyway or does something worst.

The womb will naturally abort a foetus if needed, because there was something wrong genetically. Why can't a woman, with a brain who can assess the situation choose to abort an undeveloped and not living foetus when she knows that environmentally she cannot support the child (Nature and Nurture are important). A foetus that is removed from the womb either naturally or by the mothers choice before week 21 is not a living thing. It is no more than the stem cells in your spinal cord, or the stem cells in the umbilical cord or sperm cells in the testes (and ovum in the ovaries). It doesn't have a functioning brain, it cannot live independently it is just a parasite.

Believe it or not, whether you agree or disagree without a functioning brain you are not living. You are dead anyway. There is no such thing as spirit that keeps you alive, you are a shell and the only reason that one individual may continue living without a functioning brain is because people keep them alive through medical sources. If it was the 17th century they would be dead.Therefore until the foetus has a functioning brain (23 weeks gestation) it is no more a human than a corpse is.

Finally - It doesn't effect you so why block people that need this procedure. You can be pro-life in your own time but that was your choice and therefore you should be pro-choice.

Brittanee

10-21-2012, 04:57 PM

Also, with places to get an abortion, those who truly feel they need one will have somewhere to go. Otherwise, they're going to find someone to do it for them, someone who doesn't know what they're doing and they could possibly harm the woman. Or they'll try to do it themselves.

Just because the option of abortion is there, doesn't mean everyone will go get one, but at least there are safe places to go.

William

10-23-2012, 12:29 AM

So now you have a mother who hates the baby who hates here life because she isn't allowed to get an abortion and so instead she commits suicide and kills them both. OR she waits and gives birth, hates herself or the child, potentially disowns the child causing the child extreme environmental and psychological harm or kills herself anyway or does something worst.

You can't predict the future.
Why punish the child because of the crime of the father?

Also, scientists agree that life begins at conception, also referred to as fertilization. Drs. Keith Moore and T. Persaud’s embryology textbook used by medical students at the University of British Columbia confirms this:

Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original], the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell, the zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell is the beginning of embryonic development. The zygote, just visible to the unaided eye as a tiny speck, contains chromosomes and genes (units of genetic information) that are derived from the mother and father. The unicellular organism, or zygote, divides many times and becomes progressively transformed into a multicellular human being through cell division, migration, growth, and differentiation.

Finally - It doesn't effect you so why block people that need this procedure. You can be pro-life in your own time but that was your choice and therefore you should be pro-choice.

What about the holocaust. If it didn't affect us personally, should we have just stood by and let it happen?

Believe it or not, whether you agree or disagree without a functioning brain you are not living.

Whether I agree or disagree, that is so? How does that convince me in the slightest? :P

It doesn't have a functioning brain, it cannot live independently it is just a parasite.
If you went into a coma, there's no telling when you would recover. You wouldn't be able to live independently, but that doesn't make them parasites. Also, patients can have a temporarily flat EEG, but shortly after, have a functioning brain again. In that time frame, would that person be not human? Would we be allowed to kill them?

Brittanee

10-23-2012, 06:36 AM

You keep using the Holocaust as an example. A lot of that, no one even knew that was happening until the camps were found. They were just rumors.

Abortion and the Holocaust are two totally different things. Those people were already born. They weren't a danger to someone's health or well-being.

William

10-23-2012, 09:44 AM

They weren't a danger to someone's health or well-being.

Exactly. That's what Im trying to get at. They weren't exactly life threatening which is why they shouldn't have been killed. Yet Hitler thought they were life threatening, which was obviously wrong. He thought he was doing a favor to the human race by getting rid of them, and he thought his life and well being would be horrible with them.

Brittanee

10-23-2012, 10:21 AM

Pregnancies can be a danger to a person's well being or health or life. If it is such a risk, there should be a way to terminate the pregnancy to save the life of the person who is already alive. This has absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust and it's a ridiculous defense.

William

10-23-2012, 11:06 PM

If aborting the baby was the ONLY way to save a mother's life, then abortion would be ok, since the death of the baby is an unfortunate side affect to saving the life of the mother. But only if it's an actual life of death situation. I would agree with you there.
As for "well-being", Im not sure what you mean by that. That could mean many things.
Anyways, the point of debate is to actually debate. You can't just say that the holocaust is a ridiculous example and not back it up.

Meagan

10-24-2012, 09:53 AM

You can't really pick and choose your terms of "half" legal abortions, if the baby had severe abnormality, trisomy 13 or 18, things to that nature, no baby should have to go through that. By making it illegal unless it's approved to be detrimental to the mother could possibly make her too far along to even have an abortion. In America with the debt incredibly high, making women keep a unwanted baby would put us more in debt. If she's already on welfare, has to go on welfare, putting the baby up for adoption will cost the country more money that we don't have.

I have put a lot of thought in if I would ever have an abortion, especially now that I have a one year old, and I would. By me even having my daughter put me at risk for kidney failure during the pregnancy or causing my failure to be sooner. I have severe kidney disease and it was my choice to have her even though doctor's advised me not to have children but I like to think of my quality of life. Would I be happier possibly living longer by not having children? For me I wouldn't, I wanted a child very much. Now that I have her I fear of my life being cut shorter because of my kidneys but I want to give her a sibling if I pass sooner, so I know she would never be alone. However I would not put my family through a "burden" of a baby that has a trisomy or something worse, I would not want my daughter to have to care for an adult with high needs, or her to make the decision of turning over her sibling to the state when I'm incapacitated. I'm only going to have two pregnancies, if and when I get pregnant and feel I can risk my life again to have another. Now I wouldn't speak for another woman or take away her choice to do what she decides when I know (and hope) that I never have to make that decision myself but I'm prepared to have an abortion if need be. Who are you to take away my rights? There is no black or white area in abortions and making certain exceptions to a law that should never exist?

William

10-24-2012, 12:44 PM

But didn't you make an exception to the "law that doesn't exist" by saying that you would not put your family through a "burden" of a baby that has a trisomy or something worse. There are always exceptions to laws. For example, we are never supposed to kill right. But in war, and in when our own life is in danger of being taken away, then it would be lawful. Now we see that the law says abortion is legal in all cases no matter what your state in life. Would you say that if a family is wealthy enough to support a child, abortion should still be an option for them? If so, explain to me your reasoning.
Also, I live in Canada, and here, if you have a child with a disability, you get extra money from the government to care for your child, and people around would help you just because. I know a family of 10 kids whose mother died. When people found about their scenario, they immediately came to their aid. Is it the same where you live, or different. And who are you to take away a child's right to life.

Meagan

10-24-2012, 04:42 PM

I'm not sure you understand this, maybe you will one day, but once you have a child for the most part your views on life change. Your decisions change, priorities are different, right now my priority is to make my child happy and for her to be healthy. /My/ body because of "my kidney disease" to have any children puts me at a great risk of kidney failure and doing more damage to them. I will never qualify for a transplant when they fail. I want two children, for them to have eachother when I pass, now for me to sustain a pregnancy is very hard on me, I was on bedrest and a lot of medications. I will not go through another pregnancy if my child has a severe abnormality, trisomy 13 or 18, etc because it's not fair for /myself/ as it is a great toll on my body, or "others" you have said that will help if I pass, it's also not fair for my daughter either, she shouldn't have to have the responsibility to care for a high needs sibling, not to mention the resentment she'll have to it because it might have taken my life. This is my decision and one for my family as it is a great risk to my life. I'm not one to question another woman's choice even if their reasons aren't anything like mine. You also can't say "oh well in cases of rape or incest they could abort", that would also lead to a lot of false accusations of rape. There is no right or wrong answer here, if one day you have a family, or starting one and have to make a decision of something so personal you should not be submitted to laws making it illegal or people picketing outside of the clinic, practically jump through hoops to have a judge grant you permission to one, that's absurd.

Chi

10-24-2012, 07:33 PM

You can't predict the future.
Why punish the child because of the crime of the father?

Also, scientists agree that life begins at conception, also referred to as fertilization. Drs. Keith Moore and T. Persaud’s embryology textbook used by medical students at the University of British Columbia confirms this:

Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original], the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoon) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell, the zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell is the beginning of embryonic development. The zygote, just visible to the unaided eye as a tiny speck, contains chromosomes and genes (units of genetic information) that are derived from the mother and father. The unicellular organism, or zygote, divides many times and becomes progressively transformed into a multicellular human being through cell division, migration, growth, and differentiation.

What about the holocaust. If it didn't affect us personally, should we have just stood by and let it happen?

Whether I agree or disagree, that is so? How does that convince me in the slightest? :P

If you went into a coma, there's no telling when you would recover. You wouldn't be able to live independently, but that doesn't make them parasites. Also, patients can have a temporarily flat EEG, but shortly after, have a functioning brain again. In that time frame, would that person be not human? Would we be allowed to kill them?

There is a difference between being in a coma and experiencing 'Brain Death'. Brain dead is dead. My point is that the life of a human or any animal does not begin until that animal has a functioning and 'living' brain. Therefore anything that lacks a brain is simply a shell that is being kept alive by an external incubator whether it be the woman or medical equipment. Therefore its the woman's choice, she is the incubator and if she doesn't want to continue then it is none of your business.

Secondly that is not science's position it is two individuals perception/hypothesis. Science textbooks are NOT peer reviewed and whilst they are a semi-credible source they are not peer-reviewed pieces.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] for example says that fertilisation is not the beginning of life and makes valid points for saying so....

Furthermore you are linking that quote directly from a pro-life website....Which makes me believe that you have not considered an unbiased argument to this topic. So I invite you to do so.

The holocaust is a completely different issue. Those people are living, breathing and experience psychological and physical pain. An embryo before 21 weeks (brain formation) does not experience any of those feelings....It isn't a living being.

Lastly I stated that "Believe it or not, whether you agree or disagree without a functioning brain you are not living" because even if you disagree with this statement you are inherently wrong and there is no way you can give me evidence to prove otherwise. And to save yourself time don't bother linking Anencephaly patients.....

William

10-24-2012, 10:43 PM

Furthermore you are linking that quote directly from a pro-life website....Which makes me believe that you have not considered an unbiased argument to this topic. So I invite you to do so.

I used that quote because I am from UBC and have seen that website. I can confirm that it is true since I have used the biology book that is being taught there. Did you even look into my source?

Also, since we see conflicting sources, it is obvious that there is no agreement to when life begins. Your peer reviewed source doesn't make it fact or infallible. Anyways, I'm not sure if you even read your source because although it claims that life does not begin at conception, it says "Biology provides no clear defining event to answer this question." So if we are unsure, should we be killing? If we are hunting and are unsure whether it is a human or a deer in the bush, should we shoot?

Lastly I stated that "Believe it or not, whether you agree or disagree without a functioning brain you are not living" because even if you disagree with this statement you are inherently wrong and there is no way you can give me evidence to prove otherwise.

I gave you evidence, you just didn't look into it.......still don't understand why you think my source is faulty. Also, may I ask, are you a biology/science student?
The brain of a fetus starts functioning at about 6-7 weeks, not the 20 something weeks that is legal for abortion. This is taken from mere observation and scientific evidence, and I don't believe scientists dispute about this.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

And Meagan, I really admire the sacrifice you made for your child. I wish all the best, as I see you are a very caring and courageous woman. Anyways, I might have said it incorrectly the first time, since I am not against your case. If the woman's life is threatened, then she will have the choice to abort or not. Laws making abortion illegal do not literally wipe abortion off the face of the earth because of cases like yours, which is, again, very admirable. So people who are in similar situations to yours would still have access to abortion. And I agree with you 100% that you can't say "oh well in cases of rape or incest they could abort". I agree very much that it leads to a lot of false accusations of rape.
Thank you for being very kind in this debate. I appreciate very much, as the other people here seem to be attacking me :P

Anyways, I think Ive said a lot about my stance, and I may be either annoying others, or not letting other people join in.
So my final words:
Thank you for debating with me about this issue. I respect all your stances, and understand where you coming from.
But PLEASE do not act like a certain stance on this is set in mud.
The very person(Roe in Roe vs. Wade) who was instrumental in making abortion illegal, became pro-life.
Similarly, the person who could make the laws turn around, may become pro-choice.
This is the debate section, and it would be nice to leave it that way. You need to position your statement so that one can respond to it. Don't tell others what their position MUST be. Tell them what your position is, and why you think it is correct.
So with that, farewell!

P.S. Asking questions is a good way to debate(i.e. the socratic method). Then you can more easily understand where the other person is coming from.

Chi

10-25-2012, 12:05 AM

I gave you evidence, you just didn't look into it.......still don't understand why you think my source is faulty. Also, may I ask, are you a biology/science student?
The brain of a fetus starts functioning at about 6-7 weeks, not the 20 something weeks that is legal for abortion. This is taken from mere observation and scientific evidence, and I don't believe scientists dispute about this.
I am not saying your source is faulty but its weak because its not a peer-reviewed article, its a 101 lesson you should learn in any scientific study...Textbooks are poor sources compared to peer-reviewed journal articles and you shouldn't reference them in a thesis however they can be good starting points. I did look into it, I googled the quote and only found the quote on pro-life websites, I found a review of the author T. Persaud in general and how he writes from a Christian Perspective. I also quickly read amazon reviews and one student mentioned that there were a significant amount of errors in the textbook with some others finding it dense. The point I linked the journal article was to show you that just because 'x' textbook says that does not make it scientific theory. It is just an assumption and different people can make different assumptions.

Secondly the neural tube closes at 6 weeks, and five areas begin to develop by week 7 but the brain is not completely formed. All function before approximately 16 weeks is not voluntary, its more uncontrolled twitches, some neural communication but nothing neurally is ready for the outside world. At 19-21 weeks the foetus is beginning to function beyond just simple uncontrollable movements and this is why I think abortions should be legal up until this stage. There are also some cases of infants surviving at 22 weeks surviving outside the womb (<10%) compared to foetuses at 21 weeks or less (0%). I just also wanted to mention that second trimester abortions (13+) are far less common...

I'd liken it to a cake....cooking time is one hour and at 20 minutes its still not a cake, the inside is undercooked and it won't retain its shape - inherently its just cake mixture. At 40 minutes its still a bit undercooked but after letting it rest and keeping it in a dry place its still semi-edible.

Yes - I am a Psychology student majoring in Neuropsychology.

I'm not saying your position is incorrect but I'm saying your statements are illogical and the links you made between abortion and the holocaust are not at all valid points. My second point, which I've made throughout the whole thread is that having an abortion in itself is a choice to be made by the family but finally by the mother. Going through pregnancy is risky there can be major complications and everything should be considered.

To be pro-life and to support laws that are pro-life (and ban abortions) is not ethical in the sense that you are putting more people in harms way than helping them. Whilst it hasn't really been brought up at this stage I've mentioned before in the thread that people should be pro-sexual education (contraception) rather than pro-life/pro-choice as more of an education means less abortions. Abortions therefore one day would only be needed in extreme cases (disability that greatly diminishes the quality of life, risk to the mother, in cases of rape, unable to provide the basic environmental needs etc).