Orlando Shooting

[Mindfang]

I understand you're very compassionate about your feelings with the LGBT community, and know that my stance on guns was not meant to be disrespectful to the victims of this horrendous tragedy. I feel terrible that so many innocent people lost their lives and I plan on donating what I can to the cause to help these individual's families get through these terrible times.

dw i wasnt like yelling or anything i just think its a discussion that should be nipped in the bud in this situation. as much as gun control is an important thing to talk about, i just dont feel its... appropriate? to get heated about it here, because imo the lives lost and the phobic attitude of the attacker is more the subject at hand. the guy had a license for a gun, he was fully equipped to own and use one legally, but i think the real discussion lies in the fact that, during pride month, a man killed or injured ~100 people because he disagreed with lgbt people-- something he admitted to himself. this was a hate crime. its not how he did it, its what he did and why.

like, i aint gonna chew people out for continuing to discuss it, but In My Opinion its just... not right? in this situation? and if it does need discussed i think it at least could use a separate thread.

[haiqtpi]

@(you need an account to see links) - I am tagging you not out of spite or malice or anything like that, just because I am familiar with your stance on firearms, and just wanted to respond in general to it. That said, when I use the word "you," PLEASE do not take it as me talking specifically about you, I am referring to gun-rights advocates in general (regardless of whether or not you identify as one).

This has EVERYTHING to do with gun control. I cannot comprehend why people are so insistent that gun control is not a solution to shit like this. I am going to point it out very explicitly.

Preliminary questions for you:
1. Are you familiar with how many shots were fired?
2. Are you familiar with how long the actual shooting took place?

Witnesses place it around the length of a song--if that. Assuming that every single shot hit (and it certainly did not, but just humor me here), that is at least 103 shots fired.... There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason why anybody needs the ability to fire that many bullets in such a short time...period. Lets have an honest conversation here--your guns will not protect you from the government....it did wonders for those hicks in Oregon, right? Gun rights advocates are incapable of admitting that their guns offer them little to no protection from the "hypothetical tyrannical government" that they love to cite as a reason to own gun(s). You are, and will ALWAYS be outgunned 50000000000000 fold. I am so sick and tired of hearing gun enthusiasts talking about how more guns could prevent this type of shit--you people are not rambo, regardless of how 1337 you think you are with your fatigues and whatever guns you have, you are nothing. Did you see the video footage of the Paris attacks? The highly trained French swat and police teams inched towards that building with shields and everything, and even then, progressed at a snails pace due to the need to constantly take cover--and that was outgunning the actual terrorists. This whole Chuck Norris nonsense needs to go. I do not care how many "courses" any of you take, you are not trained in the methods used to deal with this shit--and I say the same fucking thing to the military "vets" who do a tour or two in Iraq or Afghanistan (though, I do thank them for their service), and come back thinking that they are an expert in this shit, when in fact, they were a mere grunt. It is just sickening.

You still aren't convinced? Ok, how about this:
You say that gun control would not solve this problem...do you think this could happen with a flintlock musket or wheel-lock pistol? This type of carnage could not even happen with a Henry repeating-rifle. Why are people allowed to own these firearms? It is utterly idiotic, and yet every time this shit happens, people sit there holding their dicks in utter awe, trying to point fingers at anything other than firearms. When is the last time a random broadswording took place and killed 50 people? How about a good sabering? Some Zweihander carnage? How about a good drive-by longbowing? Exactly. You want to end this? Get rid of guns.

Before you jump up and down trying to argue that there will still be guns--NO SHIT. The point here is that this guy was able to legally purchase these firearms, and proceed to kill at least 50 people with ease...is that not understood? Sure, if someone wanted to shoot up a place, it probably could still happen with the requisite effort and resources, but how does that change from the current status quo? Instead, ordinary citizens are less able to procure these implements of murder, rendering them unable to kill scores of their compatriots in a matter of minutes.

Gun rights people love to point fingers at Islam, or mental illness--anything to look at the harsh reality: firearms result in deaths by firearms....compare statistics in the US with those in England or Japan....it is quite elementary. You cannot predict mental illness (there are instances where you can, but my point is that it can develop relatively suddenly and out of nowhere), and there are various dimensions of mental illness, that nobody can really determine with absolute effectiveness who is or isn't a danger. Furthermore, according to studies by David Buss (prominent scholar on the matter of murder), for example, many violent gun-crimes are committed by people who until the moment of committing the crime, were regular "sane," people--we label them as sick after the fact.

Seriously....for anyone to suggest that gun-control would not stop this type of thing from happening literally makes me face-palm.



/end rant--now I can breath normally again.

[Aska]

For fuck's sake I'm not a gun enthusiast. I live in a pre-dominant extreme right area. They will fight you every step of the way and will not allow it to happen. It's not about wanting change, it's realizing it won't happen. And out of respect for the people who have asked to not talk about this, I'm honestly annoyed you felt the need to tag me and continue a debate when:
A) there wasn't one
it was asked not to

So please take your high horse elsewhere. Also, if you wish to debate this I will gladly do this but not here.

Thanks.
Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk

[haiqtpi]

It was quite clearly and explocitly stated that you were tagged because your stance on guns had been previously expressed, and you had posted on the thread, and I wanted to discuss them to a degree, before further expanding. There is little reason for you to post on a message board if people cannot respond to your words to some degree lol Think about it--your words on the matter were pretty brief...do you REALLY think that all of my words were in mere response to YOU? Don't flatter yourself taking this post as being about you rofl how childishly myopic.

To be even clearer--this is no debate (in terms of the forum's discussion). This is my response to Jess' question, very briefly and superficially acknowledging the words of a few previous posters, as people tend to do on forums and message boards.....or what is the point in posting? Lol. You were tagged to get a better chance of you reading the post...I for one don't typically read every single post in a given thread lol. It was mere logic

[Aura]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to disrespect this tragedy. It was obviously a hate crime and there is NO excuse for what has happened. I just wanted to know how everyone felt about it.
And I definitely don't want to intend that mentally ill = dangerous. I just can't believe that someone who could commit such an act is sane

[Sci_Girl]

He was not sane to common folk who are not homophobes. The gunman may have thought he was completely sane though. As crazy as that sounds. What is also awful is the number of people in the US right now who may be saying "that's more like it" or "good" to the 50+ LGBT people murdered. There are many many people in the Country who would share this extremist gunman's opinion, but they would never do what he did. That shared opinion in itself is a disheartening fact. It is such an awful event that haopened.

[Huntera]

I believe in gun control (for better wording, better restrictions and more regulation, not prohibition), but what is more important- innocent people lost their lives in this incident. That should be the main point of it all.

The situation definitely allows for a discussion of what action people can take in the future to prevent this from happening again, but if that is all that is going to come out of it and no consideration of what the families/victims go through then it's not so good. Sometimes people forget it in the midst of things and it makes me sad.

I also think that it was wrong of me to really comment about gun control it in the first place so I apologize. I was just kind of caught in the moment from seeing people die in a tragedy like this.

[Banannie]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to disrespect this tragedy. It was obviously a hate crime and there is NO excuse for what has happened. I just wanted to know how everyone felt about it.
And I definitely don't want to intend that mentally ill = dangerous. I just can't believe that someone who could commit such an act is sane

I don't think that you disrespected this tragedy at all. I'm just worried about how the public will react if he does have a mental illness. Like, will someone then commit a hate crime on someone else in the effect of this?
Also, I wonder how the elections will be affected? People's views on Muslims? Gun control? How divided we are as a country?

[haiqtpi]

I believe in gun control (for better wording, better restrictions and more regulation, not prohibition), but what is more important- innocent people lost their lives in this incident. That should be the main point of it all.

The situation definitely allows for a discussion of what action people can take in the future to prevent this from happening again, but if that is all that is going to come out of it and no consideration of what the families/victims go through then it's not so good. Sometimes people forget it in the midst of things and it makes me sad.

I also think that it was wrong of me to really comment about gun control it in the first place so I apologize. I was just kind of caught in the moment from seeing people die in a tragedy like this.

I mean, this is one of those hybrid kind of tragedies where two major nerves are hit: the whole "Islamic terrorism" thing and gun control (at least here in the US--we deal w this type of crap every few months, though to lesser extremes).

---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

He was not sane to common folk who are not homophobes. The gunman may have thought he was completely sane though. As crazy as that sounds. What is also awful is the number of people in the US right now who may be saying "that's more like it" or "good" to the 50+ LGBT people murdered. There are many many people in the Country who would share this extremist gunman's opinion, but they would never do what he did. That shared opinion in itself is a disheartening fact. It is such an awful event that haopened.

Perhaps we as a nation can also have a serious conversation regarding "freedom of expression." The fact that blatant intolerance (see Westboro Baptist Church) is tolerated as "protected free speech," can be quite disconcerting. So yea, you are certainly right on that there are plenty of people in this country, who to a varying degree, are ok with this (varying degrees and reasons (and using WBC as a mere example)). Sometimes it is as if the mere idea and concept of freedom has been corrupted in this country. While the intentions may be in the right place, tolerating intolerance is, in my opinion, inexcusable and unacceptable.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------

How divided we are as a country?

Well, it increasingly feels like a few separate and loosely associated nations than an actual country, arguably due to the issue of states' rights. We need to remember also that an alarmingly large minority of the country also believes that our president A: wasn't born in the US and/or B is a Muslim (for various "reasons"). I'd say that we are about as divided as a modern 1st world country can be

[Bexxie]

@(you need an account to see links) - I am tagging you not out of spite or malice or anything like that, just because I am familiar with your stance on firearms, and just wanted to respond in general to it. That said, when I use the word "you," PLEASE do not take it as me talking specifically about you, I am referring to gun-rights advocates in general (regardless of whether or not you identify as one).

This has EVERYTHING to do with gun control. I cannot comprehend why people are so insistent that gun control is not a solution to shit like this. I am going to point it out very explicitly.

Preliminary questions for you:
1. Are you familiar with how many shots were fired?
2. Are you familiar with how long the actual shooting took place?

Witnesses place it around the length of a song--if that. Assuming that every single shot hit (and it certainly did not, but just humor me here), that is at least 103 shots fired.... There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason why anybody needs the ability to fire that many bullets in such a short time...period. Lets have an honest conversation here--your guns will not protect you from the government....it did wonders for those hicks in Oregon, right? Gun rights advocates are incapable of admitting that their guns offer them little to no protection from the "hypothetical tyrannical government" that they love to cite as a reason to own gun(s). You are, and will ALWAYS be outgunned 50000000000000 fold. I am so sick and tired of hearing gun enthusiasts talking about how more guns could prevent this type of shit--you people are not rambo, regardless of how 1337 you think you are with your fatigues and whatever guns you have, you are nothing. Did you see the video footage of the Paris attacks? The highly trained French swat and police teams inched towards that building with shields and everything, and even then, progressed at a snails pace due to the need to constantly take cover--and that was outgunning the actual terrorists. This whole Chuck Norris nonsense needs to go. I do not care how many "courses" any of you take, you are not trained in the methods used to deal with this shit--and I say the same fucking thing to the military "vets" who do a tour or two in Iraq or Afghanistan (though, I do thank them for their service), and come back thinking that they are an expert in this shit, when in fact, they were a mere grunt. It is just sickening.

You still aren't convinced? Ok, how about this:
You say that gun control would not solve this problem...do you think this could happen with a flintlock musket or wheel-lock pistol? This type of carnage could not even happen with a Henry repeating-rifle. Why are people allowed to own these firearms? It is utterly idiotic, and yet every time this shit happens, people sit there holding their dicks in utter awe, trying to point fingers at anything other than firearms. When is the last time a random broadswording took place and killed 50 people? How about a good sabering? Some Zweihander carnage? How about a good drive-by longbowing? Exactly. You want to end this? Get rid of guns.

Before you jump up and down trying to argue that there will still be guns--NO SHIT. The point here is that this guy was able to legally purchase these firearms, and proceed to kill at least 50 people with ease...is that not understood? Sure, if someone wanted to shoot up a place, it probably could still happen with the requisite effort and resources, but how does that change from the current status quo? Instead, ordinary citizens are less able to procure these implements of murder, rendering them unable to kill scores of their compatriots in a matter of minutes.

Gun rights people love to point fingers at Islam, or mental illness--anything to look at the harsh reality: firearms result in deaths by firearms....compare statistics in the US with those in England or Japan....it is quite elementary. You cannot predict mental illness (there are instances where you can, but my point is that it can develop relatively suddenly and out of nowhere), and there are various dimensions of mental illness, that nobody can really determine with absolute effectiveness who is or isn't a danger. Furthermore, according to studies by David Buss (prominent scholar on the matter of murder), for example, many violent gun-crimes are committed by people who until the moment of committing the crime, were regular "sane," people--we label them as sick after the fact.

Seriously....for anyone to suggest that gun-control would not stop this type of thing from happening literally makes me face-palm.



/end rant--now I can breath normally again.

I think you comments about military "vets" is disrespectful. Do you know that they get trained for situations similar to this? They may not be experts but they know more than the average civilian. You're attitude about the ones that go and serve overseas contradicts your appreciation for their service. I'm sorry but this part of your rant really got to me.

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