Gender identities / sexualities?

[I_royalty_I]

I identify as a straight male.
I usually tend to stay out of conversations like this, usually because I become quite confused as to where all these different 'classifications' suddenly came from.
You are either born male or female, for the most part. How you choose to live your life, isn't really any of my business are far as I'm concerned. I'm fine with whatever you want to do, and how you want to do it. But I feel like people get so offended if you use the wrong pronouns sometimes. How are you supposed to keep track if everybody wants to be something different? I never hear about any of this stuff in my day to day life, only online, which adds even more confusion to the mix.

[Osprey]

I'm female and pansexual/bisexual. I've never really understood the difference between the two, I guess, but I typically just say bisexual in real life since most people don't really know what pansexual is. I fall in love with personality first~

On the subject of pronouns, confuses me a lot too. I thought it was okay to say 'they/their' if you weren't sure or what not but someone screamed at me about it on tumblr the other day... oookay. It also seems sort of a fad to make up brand new pronouns? Doesn't make sense to me since that makes pronouns kinda obsolete. But ah well, none of my business in the long run what someone wants to call themselves.

[Q*bert]

I'm female and pansexual/bisexual. I've never really understood the difference between the two, I guess, but I typically just say bisexual in real life since most people don't really know what pansexual is. I fall in love with personality first~

On the subject of pronouns, confuses me a lot too. I thought it was okay to say 'they/their' if you weren't sure or what not but someone screamed at me about it on tumblr the other day... oookay. It also seems sort of a fad to make up brand new pronouns? Doesn't make sense to me since that makes pronouns kinda obsolete. But ah well, none of my business in the long run what someone wants to call themselves.

they/their is acceptable as a gender neutral pronoun like ze/zir but i think it's fairly safe to ask what the preferred pronoun is in the event you are not sure because i think most of the time they will tell you rather than have you continually misgender them. idk. but they/their is acceptable as gender neutral! i am interested in social justice too but sometimes people on tumblr just do not have any idea as to what they are talking about and it unfortunately can hurt the movement and cause preconceived notions.

[Osprey]

@(you need an account to see links)- I get the ze/zir thing and I understand its purpose (although I will be incredibly shocked if I ever encounter someone in real life who uses this) but I had thought they/their was relatively safe haha and it had come off very.... *special snowflake* I guess. Like look at (you need an account to see links). Fey/feyr/feyself? Jamself? Really? But people on tumblr take everything way too far so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised haha.

(TL;DR-- I get it if there's like one extra pronoun but when there's like 100, it seems more *special snowflake* than anything else.)

[Raj]

forgive me for butting in, love, but I'm a bit surprised at how many people don't understand the concept of identifying as genderless.
it seems to me like telling someone their favorite flavor of ice cream can't possibly be strawberry because strawberry isn't a real flavor. it has to be chocolate or vanilla.
I don't identify as being genderless, but it doesn't seem a hard concept to me. your identity simply doesn't fall on either end of the gender spectrum. it's that simple.

your ice cream analogy is like comparing apples to oranges though. being born either male or female is what all of humanity has been based on, and genders have been an essential key to identity since the origination of mankind. ice cream is a trivial, less important thing because there's always been more than one flavor of icecream and whichever is your favorite is your own personal preference. like @(you need an account to see links) said, i don't see how people can come up with these roles out of nowhere and suddenly declare themselves a different gender than the two that have been representing humanity forever. i can see how you would want to live your life differently because you don't feel that you fit into either a male or female societal role, but why do you have to declare yourself genderless and demand that different pronouns be used to describe you? i don't understand identities. i can see how sexual preferences can be different than the traditional heterosexual attraction, because that's what you look for in other people and that's a trait that really only you can decide. but to slap a label on yourself, it seems pretentious and like you're trying too hard to distinguish yourself. you could just say you're a female and your actions and behaviors could show that you don't fit the social roles of a female. that's just my stance on it, it may be different because it might be something i'd have to experience to understand (i'm a straight male, so i obviously haven't) and this whole concept is still bizarre to me.

[Skylily]

your ice cream analogy is like comparing apples to oranges though. being born either male or female is what all of humanity has been based on, and genders have been an essential key to identity since the origination of mankind. ice cream is a trivial, less important thing because there's always been more than one flavor of icecream and whichever is your favorite is your own personal preference. like @(you need an account to see links) said, i don't see how people can come up with these roles out of nowhere and suddenly declare themselves a different gender than the two that have been representing humanity forever. i can see how you would want to live your life differently because you don't feel that you fit into either a male or female societal role, but why do you have to declare yourself genderless and demand that different pronouns be used to describe you? i don't understand identities. i can see how sexual preferences can be different than the traditional heterosexual attraction, because that's what you look for in other people and that's a trait that really only you can decide. but to slap a label on yourself, it seems pretentious and like you're trying too hard to distinguish yourself. you could just say you're a female and your actions and behaviors could show that you don't fit the social roles of a female. that's just my stance on it, it may be different because it might be something i'd have to experience to understand (i'm a straight male, so i obviously haven't) and this whole concept is still bizarre to me.

I kind of agree with you.
There are two sexes. But as far as genders go, they are ideas or types made up by humans. I think as a society we are in this weird and long stage of shifting gender 'definitions'. So what if the word changes? Just be yourself and if people don't accept that w/e xD

[Holy Ghost]

your ice cream analogy is like comparing apples to oranges though. being born either male or female is what all of humanity has been based on, and genders have been an essential key to identity since the origination of mankind. ice cream is a trivial, less important thing because there's always been more than one flavor of icecream and whichever is your favorite is your own personal preference. like @(you need an account to see links) said, i don't see how people can come up with these roles out of nowhere and suddenly declare themselves a different gender than the two that have been representing humanity forever. i can see how you would want to live your life differently because you don't feel that you fit into either a male or female societal role, but why do you have to declare yourself genderless and demand that different pronouns be used to describe you? i don't understand identities. i can see how sexual preferences can be different than the traditional heterosexual attraction, because that's what you look for in other people and that's a trait that really only you can decide. but to slap a label on yourself, it seems pretentious and like you're trying too hard to distinguish yourself. you could just say you're a female and your actions and behaviors could show that you don't fit the social roles of a female. that's just my stance on it, it may be different because it might be something i'd have to experience to understand (i'm a straight male, so i obviously haven't) and this whole concept is still bizarre to me.

you've stated twice now that you don't 'understand' the concept, but nothing about what you've said either time indicates actual confusion or interest in learning to understand it.
all I've seen is "I don't agree with how you identify so I'm going to call it weird and invalid".
and that's fine, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. I didn't come here for a debate and I'm not going to have one.

[Raj]

you've stated twice now that you don't 'understand' the concept, but nothing about what you've said either time indicates actual confusion or interest in learning to understand it.
all I've seen is "I don't agree with how you identify so I'm going to call it weird and invalid".
and that's fine, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. I didn't come here for a debate and I'm not going to have one.

yeah i still don't understand it, in that post i was outlining the reasons why i don't get it. i didn't come here for a debate either lol

[Quinto]

Ahh I wasn't really looking to get into this, but @(you need an account to see links) said:

i don't see how people can come up with these roles out of nowhere and suddenly declare themselves a different gender than the two that have been representing humanity forever.

That's not actually true. It may seem to be true in Western culture, but a) there are many different cultures which have always had words/definitions for non-binary genders*, and b) just because it isn't documented and there wasn't a word for it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Ancient Greece never had words for homosexual or heterosexual, even, and I think you'll be happy to safely assume that those sexualities existed in their culture! In fact, WE didn't even have a word for homosexual until around the 1920s.

Obviously we were aware of the concept, but that's besides the point; if there isn't a word for x identity, then it means it's much more difficult to quantify people who identified that way throughout history. Moving into the more familiar territory of sexuality here, but - there couldn't have been surveys like 'Do you identify as a lesbian?' before the word 'lesbian', for example. More importantly... even cis gay people have been consistently erased throughout history because of how weird and unholy people thought they were. Trans and non-binary folks don't stand a chance. Even now there are still mature, educated people who ardently reject the theory that William Shakespeare was gay or bisexual as if it's offensive even just to suggest it. If Shakespeare happened to identify as genderless, then, do you really think we'd ever hear about it? Do you really think Shakespeare would have documented it or talked about it anywhere for fear of being persecuted?

tl;dr Please don't contribute to the long-lived erasure of LGBTQA* and non-binary identities It's sad and it can be very offensive. Not saying I am - just that it can be.

More generally... I think it's fair to say that the people arguing against non-binary genders in this thread think that their existence, particularly in the past, is very unlikely. Well... sometimes, you just kind of have to accept that just because you, personally think something is unlikely doesn't make it impossible. As a person who identifies as queer myself, I can tell you that it seems very likely to me that I'm not the first person in history to experience life off the spectrum. I'm sure other people in this thread feel the same. So - please bear your restricted viewpoint in mind when you're thinking about this? Sometimes we just have to defer to other people's experience, particularly when our own experience puts us in the mainstream majority.

I also find it interesting that it's common for people to assume that 'person identifying as genderless' = biologically female, e.g. 'why don't you just call yourself a female that doesn't conform?'. Interesting in a sad way, I mean. My feminism hurts.

Oh gosh. One final note. To people saying it's hard to keep track of others' pronouns: is it really? I think of it as the same as learning somebody's name and attaching it to their face. Sure, you might have a brainfart and forget sometimes, but as a rule it's just another piece of information that I register without thinking. I mean... I'm not trying to be rude, but by the sounds of things, you're not flooded with trans & non-binary friends/acquaintances in real life, so you probably have two alternate pronouns to remember at most - if any. If you really think that's hard, I think you might want to sit down and think about whether that's because you genuinely can't remember, or because you have some objection to it.

Not only that, but if you usually make an effort to use the correct pronouns and slip up once or twice, chances are the person won't mind too much. If they do get upset, well - there is a reason for that. They might see the slip-up as a reminder that you don't really automatically see them as their correct gender (which fucking hurts) but just apologise and try not to do it again and they should be fine.

OK. Done now. For sure.

*Very brief collection of examples of this (you need an account to see links). Really cool stuff and well worth researching around a bit more, if it interests you!

[Q*bert]

Ahh I wasn't really looking to get into this, but @(you need an account to see links) said:



That's not actually true. It may seem to be true in Western culture, but a) there are many different cultures which have always had words/definitions for non-binary genders*, and b) just because it isn't documented and there wasn't a word for it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Ancient Greece never had words for homosexual or heterosexual, even, and I think you'll be happy to safely assume that those sexualities existed in their culture! In fact, WE didn't even have a word for homosexual until around the 1920s.

Obviously we were aware of the concept, but that's besides the point; if there isn't a word for x identity, then it means it's much more difficult to quantify people who identified that way throughout history. Moving into the more familiar territory of sexuality here, but - there couldn't have been surveys like 'Do you identify as a lesbian?' before the word 'lesbian', for example. More importantly... even cis gay people have been consistently erased throughout history because of how weird and unholy people thought they were. Trans and non-binary folks don't stand a chance. Even now there are still mature, educated people who ardently reject the theory that William Shakespeare was gay or bisexual as if it's offensive even just to suggest it. If Shakespeare happened to identify as genderless, then, do you really think we'd ever hear about it? Do you really think Shakespeare would have documented it or talked about it anywhere for fear of being persecuted?

tl;dr Please don't contribute to the long-lived erasure of LGBTQA* and non-binary identities It's sad and it can be very offensive. Not saying I am - just that it can be.

More generally... I think it's fair to say that the people arguing against non-binary genders in this thread think that their existence, particularly in the past, is very unlikely. Well... sometimes, you just kind of have to accept that just because you, personally think something is unlikely doesn't make it impossible. As a person who identifies as queer myself, I can tell you that it seems very likely to me that I'm not the first person in history to experience life off the spectrum. I'm sure other people in this thread feel the same. So - please bear your restricted viewpoint in mind when you're thinking about this? Sometimes we just have to defer to other people's experience, particularly when our own experience puts us in the mainstream majority.

I also find it interesting that it's common for people to assume that 'person identifying as genderless' = biologically female, e.g. 'why don't you just call yourself a female that doesn't conform?'. Interesting in a sad way, I mean. My feminism hurts.

Oh gosh. One final note. To people saying it's hard to keep track of others' pronouns: is it really? I think of it as the same as learning somebody's name and attaching it to their face. Sure, you might have a brainfart and forget sometimes, but as a rule it's just another piece of information that I register without thinking. I mean... I'm not trying to be rude, but by the sounds of things, you're not flooded with trans & non-binary friends/acquaintances in real life, so you probably have two alternate pronouns to remember at most - if any. If you really think that's hard, I think you might want to sit down and think about whether that's because you genuinely can't remember, or because you have some objection to it.

Not only that, but if you usually make an effort to use the correct pronouns and slip up once or twice, chances are the person won't mind too much. If they do get upset, well - there is a reason for that. They might see the slip-up as a reminder that you don't really automatically see them as their correct gender (which fucking hurts) but just apologise and try not to do it again and they should be fine.

OK. Done now. For sure.

*Very brief collection of examples of this (you need an account to see links). Really cool stuff and well worth researching around a bit more, if it interests you!

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