Affirmative Action - Good or Bad?

[Chi]

I'm looking at this from an non-american perspective....and it seems super weird ;/

"For example, say Jane and Jill were two identical girls, made the same grades, scored the scores, played the same sports. However, Jane is white and Jill is black. If they both apply to the same college, Jill has a better chance of getting into college."

If Jane and Jill were two identical students here they would either be both accepted or both rejected. (i.e 100 ATAR is the best. If they both got an ATAR of 79 and the cut off for the course was 79 they'd both be accepted). All universities see here is a student number and your score.

I think its super unfair if two top students who get the same scores and only one gets in because their racial background is stereotyped to be disadvantaged....I just don't understand how that works.

[IndigoSunset]

Hey, look whose the President of the United States.

They say African Americans need more help but that's bullshit. Asian people put the money into paying for Saturday and Sunday classes in prep school so they can get better grades. I come from public housing, I see many poor African Americans and equally poor Asian families.

But The Asians invest their money, effort, and time into their child's education while African American families tend to buy drugs, weed, alcohol, and electronics, They also need those fancy rims, as a result, their kid's education goes neglected. They bitch about affirmative action and want something that they don't work for.

It all boils down to how much effort they put into improving their own lives. There is no cycle that ties them down. It's all a matter of what they are willing to pay and invest in. Mostly they prefer to go for drugs and booze.

Doesn't matter if they are Asian, Caucasian, Black, Hispanic, or Indian.

Those who apply themselves can break from the cycle. Some just are content on coasting by on Food Stamps and Government Aid.

Those who apply themselves can break from the cycle. And there we have the greatest lie of the American Dream, of aspiration anywhere in the world. The idea that anyone can make it just from hard work is, quite frankly, rubbish. It takes more than just hard work to prosper. Possibly the greatest problem, is a matter of luck. Many people work hard, some people get lucky and break the cycle.

I find your views in this post, honestly, repulsive. Firstly, there is the lie that it's simply a lack of effort holding people back. Secondly, it blames the children of these families for their problems. Thirdly, it suggests that there is absolutely no link between the background of someone and their ability to succeed. If that were the case, why are the people from poorer backgrounds always the least likely to be in the better-paid jobs?

Do you think the Jews can have special laws and benefits for them for what happened during the holocaust in WWII?

Well, honestly, yes: (you need an account to see links)

Asians were discriminated against too but when people think Asian, they think hard working math geeks.

Not lazy pot smoking alcoholics.

Perhaps it would interest you to read the following report? (you need an account to see links)
To summarise the results: "Controlling for gender, the odds of past 12-month illicit use of prescription drugs was statistically significantly higher among Whites and Hispanics compared to African Americans"
Stick that in your prejudiced pipe and smoke it

[Evelsaint]

I don't smoke or drink so suck it. This is a debate and I brought up valid points.

America is founded by the idea that you have to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" because some one else isn't going to.

You call it a lie but those who arent willing to work will never succeed.

You can sugar coat it all you want but reality is you can't escape poverty by twiddling your thumb up your ass. Why do you see sone people working two to three jobs a day while others are content to do nothing and receive government aid?

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Also it's not my prejudice but you have rappers making songs about fooling around, drugs, guns, n shit. Yes there is a serious drug problem but stereotypes do exist and for Asians, it's that they are geeky math dudes, white people: narrow minded, Hispanic: family oriented, etc etc. These are stereo types that they observe of each other.
Common stereotypes. I love how your trying to make this personal against me.

And yes the Jews who suffered should get reparations but not all the Jews can get a law that applies to all.

Anything else I can go all day.

@indigosun

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------

@(you need an account to see links)

Yes the rich get richer but the poor stay poor unless they do something about it.

Affirmative action is becoming obsolete because there is equal opportunity for education in public school and racism died down. Yes there is still discrimination in the work place but compared to back then, it's laughable.

There is a high level of podiums correlation between levels education and income but poverty is not an excuse for poor academics. Public schooling is free and standard.

Bad habits get passed on from parents to kids but if you don't take the first step, you can't move forward.

---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

Edit:sorry for all the double post and typos but I'm typing from my cellphone.

*positive correlation.

And indigo, this is a debate thread for affirmative action, not poverty levels and success. You can start a seperate thread for that and I will participate there.

[IndigoSunset]

I don't smoke or drink so suck it. This is a debate and I brought up valid points.

America is founded by the idea that you have to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" because some one else isn't going to.

You call it a lie but those who arent willing to work will never succeed.

You can sugar coat it all you want but reality is you can't escape poverty by twiddling your thumb up your ass. Why do you see sone people working two to three jobs a day while others are content to do nothing and receive government aid?

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Also it's not my prejudice but you have rappers making songs about fooling around, drugs, guns, n shit. Yes there is a serious drug problem but stereotypes do exist and for Asians, it's that they are geeky math dudes, white people: narrow minded, Hispanic: family oriented, etc etc. These are stereo types that they observe of each other.
Common stereotypes. I love how your trying to make this personal against me.

And yes the Jews who suffered should get reparations but not all the Jews can get a law that applies to all.

Anything else I can go all day.

@indigosun

I don't get how your preference for drink is relevant? And sure, they're valid and I absolutely believe in your right to hold them. But I'm equally entitled to find them backwards and discriminatory

It appears you've misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that you can escape poverty by doing nothing. What I was in fact saying, was that your assertion that anyone and everyone in poverty could escape it if they just worked just a bit harder is entirely fallacious.

If you also hold a view then it is your prejudice, regardless of origin. Thanks for explaining stereotypes to me though. Just because a belief is commonly held, doesn't make it any more valid. I've cited a research paper as evidence that White and Hispanic people are more likely to use drugs than African American. You have simply said "But what about rap and all that?"

Thanks for reading the link I posted about Jews and responding with a non-sequitur. That page was about the vast number of countries that have Laws prohibiting Holocaust denial, prohibiting anti-semitism, prohibiting the use of Nazi symbols amongst other things. Thus showing that yes, Jews can and do have extra protection as a result of the Holocaust.

I'd like to restate what I posted before and I wonder if you might respond to it in turn now:
Firstly, there is the lie that it's simply a lack of effort holding people back. Secondly, it blames the children of these families for their problems. Thirdly, it suggests that there is absolutely no link between the background of someone and their ability to succeed. If that were the case, why are the people from poorer backgrounds always the least likely to be in the better-paid jobs?

And indigo, this is a debate thread for affirmative action, not poverty levels and success. You can start a seperate thread for that and I will participate there.

Yes, but your main contention so far for stopping affirmative action is that African Americans are(on the whole) lazy and work-shy and it's their own fault they're in poverty so they shouldn't be given a helping hand. I'm seeking to challenge that to demonstrate why I believe your opinion that affirmative action should be stopped is flawed.

There is a high level of podiums correlation between levels education and income but poverty is not an excuse for poor academics. Public schooling is free and standard.

Except that poverty is a major reason people don't receive the same level of education. "Poverty is rooted in US Education System"- (you need an account to see links) I can find you plenty more evidence that home and family life has as much an impact on a child's potential as their schooling does if you like?

[Evelsaint]

Again I reiterate, I am not asserting that if you try, you will automatically succeed and escape poverty.

You seem set on attacking a point you came to assume I said.

Let me make this simple and clear for you.

If you are poor and you do not even attempt to break the cycle, the cycle will continue.

Also why do you keep mentioning African Americans? I said white yellow red pink rainbow. It doesn't matter what race they are. There are already stereo types and if you want to discriminate, be my guest

Also please include affirmative action into your reasoning.

Say between Sally and Shequila, one minority, the other not.

They both come from impoverish families, both recording compulsory education. They are applying for the same middle school. Only one spot is left. Affirmative action will choose shequila over Sally.

Read my first post.

I said affirmative action is good.

But obsolete because it was drafted in a time when you were refused a job or equal opportunity based on your ethnicity. That means they don't even bother to pick up your profile and read it.

It's not like that anymore. Not to an extreme level besides a few odd cases.

Stop digging up various posts I made to different situations and stringing them to make a post full of bullshit. You're coloring me as someone who is prejudice and I take offense to it because it's not true.

This is a debate thread. Stick to the topic.

As for the poverty situation?

It's a small point on the face of things in regards to affirmative action. Read the opening post regarding the definition of affirmative action.

Like I said, open a thread regarding poverty and the cycle and I will post there.

@(you need an account to see links)

[Evelsaint]

Edit: Internet conking out, sending multiple requests.

[IndigoSunset]

Again I reiterate, I am not asserting that if you try, you will automatically succeed and escape poverty.

You seem set on attacking a point you came to assume I said.

Let me make this simple and clear for you.

If you are poor and you do not even attempt to break the cycle, the cycle will continue.

Also why do you keep mentioning African Americans? I said white yellow red pink rainbow. It doesn't matter what race they are. There are already stereo types and if you want to discriminate, be my guest

Also please include affirmative action into your reasoning.

Say between Sally and Shequila, one minority, the other not.

They both come from impoverish families, both recording compulsory education. They are applying for the same middle school. Only one spot is left. Affirmative action will choose shequila over Sally.

Read my first post.

I said affirmative action is good.

But obsolete because it was drafted in a time when you were refused a job or equal opportunity based on your ethnicity. That means they don't even bother to pick up your profile and read it.

It's not like that anymore. Not to an extreme level besides a few odd cases.

Stop digging up various posts I made to different situations and stringing them to make a post full of bullshit. You're coloring me as someone who is prejudice and I take offense to it because it's not true.

This is a debate thread. Stick to the topic.

As for the poverty situation?

It's a small point on the face of things in regards to affirmative action. Read the opening post regarding the definition of affirmative action.

Like I said, open a thread regarding poverty and the cycle and I will post there.

@(you need an account to see links)

I'm sorry you seem to have taken my disagreement so personally and have resorted to calling my arguments 'bullshit' without properly responding to them.

"They say African Americans need more help but that's bullshit" "African American families tend to buy drugs, weed, alcohol, and electronics" "There is no cycle that ties them down" "Those who apply themselves can break from the cycle"
All from your second post. I don't disagree with your assertion that "If you are poor and you do not even attempt to break the cycle, the cycle will continue." But you went beyond that and by stating that there wasn't even a cycle you said that it was, in essence, the poor's fault that they are still poor.

I keep mentioning African Americans because that was a subject that was raised in the initial post and a group which you chose to characterise as "tend[ing] to buy drugs, weed, alcohol, and electronics" as an explanation for why affirmative action should be ceased.

The point I'm making, is that people don't start in life on an even playing field. On average(and I would like to stress this point, on average, since obviously there will be some examples of a rich black american coming up against a poor white american), a white person will have a greater income than a black or hispanic family((you need an account to see links)). As a result, they will most likely have a greater chance of future income((you need an account to see links)). Why? Because children from poor backgrounds achieve poorer standards of education ((you need an account to see links)). So in my opinion, affirmative action is most definitely still necessary, as evidenced by those facts.

Therefore, your suggestion that affirmative action is obsolete simply because a potential employer might at least consider employing a black or hispanic person is fundamentally flawed. If 2 people have got to the same point in their career, despite one of them having started from a worse background which substantially decreased the life expectancy and future earnings expectancy, surely they are more deserving of the job all other things being equal? In the case of Shequila and Sally, Shequila is more likely to be from a low income background and thus has had to travel much further to reach the same point as Sally. I don't therefore see why you think it would be wrong to take the positive action to give the job to Shequila?

I'm not 'digging up posts' as you like to put it. Heck, the thread's only about a day old. If you don't still stand by the opinions that are only ~24 hours old then how am I supposed to respond to any of your arguments, since your view may have changed by the time I come to reply? I can only debate with the points you make. If you don't believe my posts have been relevant(despite me demonstrating and explaining why they are) then by all means make use of the Report button.

Your main objection to affirmative action was that it is obsolete and thus no longer relevant to our society. As an example of this, you offered African Americans: "They say African Americans need more help but that's bullshit". I have therefore been showing categorically and by means of a variety of sources(of which you are yet to avail yourself) that they do indeed need support.

[Evelsaint]

Again, you're not reading what I'm writing, Sally and Shequila have the same income level.

And yes I say it's bull shit about them needing more support because if you're poor, you are equally poor, just because you are AA doesn't mean you should get an edge over other Poor folks.

Therefore, your suggestion that affirmative action is obsolete simply because a potential employer might at least consider employing a black or hispanic person is fundamentally flawed. If 2 people have got to the same point in their career, despite one of them having started from a worse background which substantially decreased the life expectancy and future earnings expectancy, surely they are more deserving of the job all other things being equal? In the case of Shequila and Sally, Shequila is more likely to be from a low income background and thus has had to travel much further to reach the same point as Sally. I don't therefore see why you think it would be wrong to take the positive action to give the job to Shequila?

Read you first line, i said it is becoming obsolete, not it is.

You need to stop posting incorrect summaries of what I post.

Edit: You can disagree all you want.

I can say the same for other races as well.

Some Asian families are greedy money hoarders, I know people that refused to pay for their college education, they wanted their kids to work in the family business to make more money.

I know some Hispanic families that refuse to send their kids to tutoring even though they desperately need it because they don't want to spend the extra money on free education.

I know Caucasian people whose families are broken up and living with single parents, and sometimes the parents don't even care what the kids do. They kick the kid out once the kid is 18 or the kid moves out themselves.

I can go all day.

Stop bitching about AA. It could easily be any race, I just chose AA because there's a lot of them from my neighborhood where I grew up and I saw the things that happened.

I'll believe something different when you had the same experience where I had growing up in housing and having a drug dealer living on the same floor as you.

Until then don't string statistics and say shit.

I've seen Chinese prostitutes and Triads dealing.

Mexican Drug dealers.

White people dealing in school. <-- and this is top HS in the State.

Like I said, I don't care what race and ethnicity, I can pull an example for each.

[IndigoSunset]

Again, you're not reading what I'm writing, Sally and Shequila have the same income level.

And yes I say it's bull shit about them needing more support because if you're poor, you are equally poor, just because you are AA doesn't mean you should get an edge over other Poor folks.

Read you first line, i said it is becoming obsolete, not it is.

You need to stop posting incorrect summaries of what I post.

Well you didn't actually state that but ok. Regardless of income, life is much harder suffering from prejudice than not suffering from it. And so I still believe it's right that Shequila should be ahead of Sally, all other things being equal.

Except that in itself is 'bull shit'. Of course there are different levels of being poor, it would be silly to suggest otherwise. And it's not that someone is AA(I presume Alcoholics Anonymous though being a Brit, apologies if it stands for summit else) and so should get an advantage over other people. What I am saying, as has been proven by the links I have provided, is that people who have alcoholic, low income, or drug-using parents are at a tremendous disadvantage in terms of education regardless of the supposedly equal education they receive. If 2 people are starting off at different points and then receive an equal education at school then 1 is still going to be ahead, by virtue simply of being born to the right parents.

You said it was only becoming obsolete? Well, I can obviously forgive what was presumably a typo in your earlier post. but what about:

Racial discrimination exist but compared to it was back then, the Affirmative action is obsolete.

I said affirmative action is good.

But obsolete because it was drafted in a time when you were refused a job or equal opportunity based on your ethnicity.

You quite clearly stated twice that you believe affirmative action is obsolete.

You need to stop misrepresenting(it's a polite way of saying lying ) about what you said.